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Joe Should Go

I wish I was a United States Senator, so I could introduce a bill to strip Joe Lieberman of his American citizenship.

You know, Golden Rule and all that. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. What goes around comes around.

Joe Lieberman = Al Gore's Biggest Mistake.



May. 11th, 2010 04:40 am (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
Of course I would be happy to e-mail (or even snail mail) you a copy of my DD214 to prove my service as a Ranger to this country from 1988 to 1992 (I will black out my social security number, but other than that I will leave my military record to speak for itself, maybe you can even call me and I can recite the Ranger Creed for you. Almost 20 years later and I still remember every line. Some things never leave you).

You are using labels as a means to further your argument and as a means of attack. You say I am a Liberal (Please note the capital 'L'. I am not, unless you consider a classic liberal, what we today would call a libertarian in the mold of Trenchard and Gordon of the Independent Whig, to be a Liberal. Which it is not).

You seem to miss my point. I do no necessarily have a problem with removing the citizenship of those who threaten this country. There are precedent for traitors, such as Robert E. Lee and much of the leadership of the CSA. My problem is we are happy to only hold one group accountable while we allow those who wish to exploit their fellow Americans and do great harm to this country to get away with it. These people do far greater harm to this country than one SUV bomb ever could, and yet I am still waiting for some kind of indictment for the near-collapse of our entire economic system.

I am also a historian (one masters degree and working on a second) and there are great parallels in history to what is going on in America, most notably the Ottoman Empire in the late-sixteenth and seventeenth centuries and the Byzantine Empire in the eleventh and twelfth centuries. There the interests of select elites became inverse to that of the state: They did better economically provided the empire did worse; as the empire became more dysfunctional, so did their power and influence grow. They encouraged wars which further sapped the strength of the empire and which allowed them greater profit from said loss of strength.

I do not need to watch America: The Story of Us to see what a true American looks like. I see one every day when I look in the mirror, and I also think of the four years I spent away from my wife while I was in the Army and she was living with her parents in Massachusetts. Don't preach to me of sacrifice as I have watched my brother, a newly promoted first sergeant in the Marine Corps who has served Iraq for one tour, is most likely off to Afghanistan within the year.

My offer still stands, I will be happy to send you a copy of my DD214. Just please, do not let arguments so quickly tumble down into an exercise in name calling. It does neither of us any good. And lastly, it is not a matter of trading a life for 100,000 jobs or even 10,000,000 jobs, the two arguments are not mutually inclusive. We do not have to lose a life to save those jobs; we just have to demand of those who say they put America first to truly put America first.
May. 11th, 2010 09:50 pm (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
Ok to your first reply. What titles did I throw around? The only thing I said about the military is "my soldiers" when talking about people who have it way worse then those whom commit suicide not way worse then you. You were the one content with pompous titles and credentials. "Ranger" "Master's Degree", etc. You have no idea what I do nor what my background is. So I can assume you will reroute that ridiculous comment back to yourself. I never preached to you of any sacrifice that you need to make at all so I have no idea where that came from. I merely suggested you watch a good program about great Americans. From this you derived that I was insinuating you were not a great American and felt the need to defend yourself by saying you look in the mirror and see one. That's great, so do I. But I still like to know when I may better myself with good content and see what I can do to emulate even greater Americans. I mean you made it clear you are a historian so you would think it would interest you. What names did I call you? I did make references to liberals but if you are not, fair enough. That's not exactly a stinger and as a ranger I'm sure you've heard worse. I am torn by your comment about them not being mutually inclusive. I agree that both can be done because they are unrelated. But that was my point. They are unrelated but you found the comparison and I felt the comparison was weak. I agree that we need to keep jobs in America but I don't think punishing companies for finding a better opportunity is fair. Maybe it's just the capitalist in me. If this country makes it harder for a company to make a profit through regulation and taxes then why wouldn't they go somewhere to make more money. However, the reason I said anything at all was you were comparing terrorists to Wall Street and I think the relationship is apples and oranges. Terrorists want to maliciously kill innocent people and cause chaos, I'm pretty sure Wall Street doesn't do that. I hope your brother stays safe in Afghanistan because I'll have it easier in Iraq when I leave in June. I will read the next thing you posted later when I get a chance. Oh and I don't need your DD214, the Ranger Creed, the Soldiers creed, NCO Creed, or anything else. Call me naive but I have a tendency to believe people even on message boards. But I will leave you with a suggestion like you did me. Do not take everything I am disagreeing with you on as an attack. I was actually surprised to see you defending yourself so vehemently because it didn't seem like what I posted was particularly malicious.
May. 12th, 2010 12:26 pm (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
This was the reason for my response:

"Anyway, after reading your post I realized you are just beating around the bush about the answer to my question. Which is essentially yes, you would trade 1 life for 100,000 jobs. That is the problem with liberals, progressives, democrats, whatever. They are statist."

How would you normally take that? Also . . .

"Now I love the arguments liberals make about how 'evil corporations' inadvertently cause death"

Seeing as I had just made that argument, are you saying you were not calling me a liberal, and that in using the term "liberal" you were not meaning it as an insult?

Like it or not, the term "liberal" is certainly used as a pejorative and an invective from those in the conservative spectrum (please, feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong). It just did not seem like anything I suggested or referenced was dependent upon a particular political ideology.

I was not trying to compare Wall Street to terrorists, so on that I should have been much more clear, but it was more of a comment derived from discussions I have had with others outside of this board. Let's just put it down to me continuing a conversation here and not filling anyone in on the first half of the conversation. I will stand by my statement that the loose and destructive actions by Wall Street from 2000-2008 certainly did more damage than one SUV bomb ever could.

As far as corporations go, they are not evil. They are responsible for employing tens of millions of people in this country. The officers of a company have one, and only one, responsibility: To ensure a profit for their stockholders. Perhaps that is why I favor privately held companies as opposed to publicly traded ones. I am not saying companies need to be punished (unless they engage in illegal behavior (such as Enron)); but I do find it abhorrent that an American company will buy a pair of jeans made in China for $4.25, and from workers who are being paid $0.06 an hour, and then turn around and charge $75 for said pair of jeans. Meanwhile, China is happy to then take the profits from such a manufacturing situation and lend the money at interest to the United States. Sorry, but on the part of the American corporation, that is treasonous and has a strong parallel to the elites of the Ottoman Empire and their dealings with France and England, et al during the seventeenth century.

Perhaps I lean away from the laissez-faire capitalism of Adam Smith and more towards Ordoliberalism. I believe it is the government's responsibility to ensure a country's economic system cannot be brought to the brink of collapse due to abuses in a non-regulated environment.

As far as America: The Story of Us, I actually had already recorded the the first episode because I felt the CGI of the settlements would be helpful in class.

One last thing, Ranger and Masters are not pompous titles. Duke, baron, and king are examples of pompous titles. They don't have to be earned. There is nothing wrong with being proud of the things you worked so hard for, and saying such, particularly when it certainly appeared my nature as a "true American' was being questioned.


George R.R. Martin
George R. R. Martin

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