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"Show Us Your Papers"

I am way too busy these days for long political rants.

But I would be remiss if I do not at least make passing mention of how depressed, disgusted, and, yes, angry I've become as I watch the ongoing attempts at voter suppression in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Iowa, and other states where Republicans and their Teabagger allies control key seats of power.

It is one thing to attempt to win elections. But trying to do so by denying the most basic and important right of any American citizen to hundreds and thousands of people, on entirely spurious grounds... that goes beyond reprehensible. That is despicable.

It would really be nice if there were still some Republicans of conscience out there who would stand up and loudly denounce these efforts, a few men of honor and integrity for whom "win the election" does not "win the election at any cost." There were once many Republicans I admired, even I disagreed with them: men like Everett Dirksen, Clifford Case, Henry Cabot Lodge, William Scranton... yes, even Barry Goldwater, conservative as he is. I do not believe for a moment that Goldwater would have approved of this, any more than Robert A. Heinlein would have. They were conservatives, but they were not bigots, nor racists, nor corrupt. The Vote Suppressors have far more in common with Lester Maddox, George Wallace, John Stennis, and their ilk than they do with their distinguished GOP forebears.

The people behind these efforts at disenfranchising large groups of voters (the young, the old, the black, the brown) are not Republicans, since clearly they have scant regard for our republic or its values. They are oligarchs and racists clad in the skins of dead elephants.

And don't tell me they are libertarians either. No true libertarians would ever support a culture where citizens must "show their papers" to vote or travel. That's a hallmark of a police state, not a free country.

TUESDAY ADDENDUM: Okay, this has been running several days now, has been featured on HUFFINGTON POST and ABC news, referenced on Stephanie Miller, and no doubt countless other people. We have had four hundred messages, and I think everyone has had their say, and everything that needs to be said has been said. Generally eight or ten times. There are plenty of links and references in the comment threads for those who would like to know more about these voter suppression efforts. If you don't want to dig through the links, start with the Brennan Center for Justice and get the facts.

There's no sense in letting this spin on in circles forever. I am locking comments. Back to Westeros and worldcon and similar subjects, boys and girls.

Thanks for listening.



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Aug. 12th, 2012 02:57 pm (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly with this post. But, then I always suspected we'd have similar politics after reading ASoIF.

I find most fantasy novels to be troubling in their adoration of authoritarianism (usually in the form of monarchy), militarism, worth being hereditary, disregard for poor people, and other questionable values (many of which the current crop of republicans are espousing). Your novels don't do those things. It is why I love them so, I why this post does not surprise me...rather I can just be delighted by it.

Bravo, sir!
Aug. 12th, 2012 04:35 pm (UTC)
FWIW... I am pretty upfront about my political views... but I also strive to keep contemporary politics out of my medieval fantasies.

Mind you, there are certain themes that are universal -- musings on power, justice, the purpose of government -- and those will inevitably be a part of any book that treats with kings and wars, etc.
Aug. 12th, 2012 03:01 pm (UTC)
Start Here for Documentation
For those who doubt this is occurring I direct you to the Brennan Center for Justice. They are taking steps to defend this precious and basic right.


And I do have the "qualifications" you demand. I was an attorney with a speciality in Constitutional law. Now I'm "just a writer" so you may choose to discount me, but I urge you to follow the links and analysis of the Brennan Center.
Aug. 12th, 2012 03:05 pm (UTC)
Thank you
I think my thank you to you didn't go through, George, so I'm trying again.

Thank you for your eloquent post. This is a terrifying assault on a right that is fundamental to our Constitution and democracy, and frankly, it's scaring the hell out of me.

Aug. 12th, 2012 03:32 pm (UTC)
Thank you for this post, I think you are actually educating some of your readers (I hope so), I'm amazed at how many people are just oblivious to this issue. Of course I can tell you that the State of Iowa passed 'voter ID laws' but it wasn't covered in the newspaper or local network news! If citizens don't pursue knowledge then they will remain ignorant.

I understand that Nixon was totally convinced that Kennedy stole the 1960 election with voter fraud in Chicago (and I don't know that he was wrong), and many Republicans from his administration felt that ANYTHING was fair after that.

The purging of legal voters from the registered voter lists in Florida were the reason Bush won in 2000 (along with a corrupt Supreme Court). And there was real evidence of Bush's Republicans in Ohio stealing that state to insure his election 2004 with gerry-rigged electronic voting machines. This is just the next step in their (evident) sense that anything they can get away with, they should.
Denise Christensen
Aug. 12th, 2012 03:41 pm (UTC)
You gotta think
The only purpose of showing an I'd for voting is to make sure you are who you say you are. Most of the time I show an ID to use my credit card, and in an age with identity theft, why is proving you are who you say you are such a bad thing? This suppresses no one
Aug. 12th, 2012 04:29 pm (UTC)
Re: You gotta think
This is a solution without a problem.

Study after study has shown that voter fraud occurs at levels so small as to insignificant.
(no subject) - misterdaniel - Aug. 13th, 2012 04:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - grrm - Aug. 13th, 2012 04:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - apostle_of_eris - Aug. 13th, 2012 11:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: You gotta think - Robert Fiorentino - Aug. 12th, 2012 06:08 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Aug. 12th, 2012 04:26 pm (UTC)
What is the solution?
So what is the solution to ensure that only legal, honest citizens vote and our elections are not marred by law breakers? I'm open for ideas.

The answer is not to accept that illegal votes will count.
The answer is also not to suppress legal citizens from voting.

So what is a good solution to ensure that each voter is a legal citizen of the US and entitled to vote in the US, in their state, in their county?
Aug. 12th, 2012 04:31 pm (UTC)
Re: What is the solution?
We don't need a "solution" since we do not have a problem.

Study after study has shown that voter fraud occurs at levels so small as to insignificant.

Should we disenfranchise millions to prevent the malfeasance of dozens?
Re: What is the solution? - presdlee - Aug. 12th, 2012 08:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: What is the solution? - grrm - Aug. 12th, 2012 10:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: What is the solution? - Neville Ross - Aug. 14th, 2012 08:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: What is the solution? - presdlee - Aug. 12th, 2012 08:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
here, go do some research for yourself - parrismcb - Aug. 13th, 2012 06:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: What is the solution? - Danny Widdel - Aug. 13th, 2012 11:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: What is the solution? - grrm - Aug. 14th, 2012 12:12 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: What is the solution? - Danny Widdel - Aug. 14th, 2012 03:12 am (UTC) - Expand
Euler Ferrer Jr
Aug. 12th, 2012 04:49 pm (UTC)
As a true libertarian of over 20 years, I couldn't agree with you more.

This is the same group that hijacked the legit grass roots tea party movement whose only focus was to limit growth of government. But has turned into a platform of a bunch of extreme right wing xenophobes.

This is a pure power grab.
Aug. 12th, 2012 05:02 pm (UTC)
I guess this is where I should agree with my favorite author. Too bad I don't fall in line. I'm a libertarian through and through. My issue is anyone with an eighth grade education buying into the propaganda from either side.
As a Marine Corps vet of Iraq and Afgan, I will defend any citizens right to vote. However ,I'm sorry but I can't see anything wrong with asking to see a DL or SSC before voting.
The argument that people cannot afford it, is absurd. I'm for giving out free Id's or SC cards if by some chance someone cannot afford it. I was raised extremely poor and still found a way. If a person slams both sides, I'm with them but if a person fully backs one side, I began to question their intellect. Not being able to afford an ID is the weakest argument I've heard since Bush's argument for war with Iraq. If we cannot wake up from the brainwash perpetrated by News media than we deserve a huge, corrupt government. We have drones watching every move we make. We have a government monitoring our every word or action online. We have an illegal federal reserve inflating our money.
I say let whoever marry that wants to.
Let people do whatever drug fancies them as long as it does not harm anyone else.
Let people say anything they want.
Keep government hands off of the Internet.
Get rid of the FR and IRS. Eliminate all tax with the exception of a sales tax.
Incorporate technology into voting and let the people vote on everything that effects them.
Throw out lobbyist and force all representatives to live amongst their constituents. They can vote from home through a secure Internet connection.
Instead of one president, go with two, the way the early Roman republic did.
Oh, and figure out a way to verify the legal status of voters.
Aug. 12th, 2012 05:12 pm (UTC)
Two consuls, like the Roman Republic? That might be fun.

And maybe ten tribunes too, every one of them with an absolute right to veto any law they did not like.

The libertarian's dream. Nothing would ever get done.

Of course, you seem a well-read guy, you DO know that the Roman Republic ultimately collapsed and gave way to the Principate and the Empire? And not because of the orgies, as the Christian Right whackos would have you believe. It was because the ossified Republican system with those two consuls and ten tribunes made it next to impossible for the government actually to address any of the social problems that were arising...

So instead of taxes and land reform, the horrors the conservative elements of the Republic wanted to prevent, we got bread, circuses, civil war, and five hundred years of imperial rule.
(no subject) - fanoffun - Aug. 12th, 2012 06:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
You sir, are awesome - rometag - Aug. 14th, 2012 03:56 am (UTC) - Expand
lets invade canada - guessingo - Aug. 13th, 2012 07:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fanoffun - Aug. 13th, 2012 08:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
It's not just the cost - it's the red tape - parrismcb - Aug. 13th, 2012 07:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fanoffun - Aug. 14th, 2012 03:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
Aug. 12th, 2012 06:39 pm (UTC)
I'm a person with very definite democratic leanings and more moderate that lives in a very conservative state. We have been 'graced' with a hyper conservative governor that's openly doing all he can to oust any and all moderates so that he can fill our legislature with nothing but cronies that'll do his bidding. (and been quite open about it too, do what he wants you to do or he'll find a way too get rid of you)

I think the bigger issue isn't as much the voter ID as it is the corruption of our general system. Popular votes don't even count in the end. The President is chosen by the electoral college. I know that, as a moderate, my vote literally doesn't count because all our electoral votes go republican. always, without question. (to the point that the candidates don't even campaign here...mixed blessing, we're spared the crap of ads but also know that they don't give a damn about us cause we don't have enough votes to matter, and we're a sure bet anyway)

Wanna level the playing field? disband the electoral college, let us choose our Prez 100% on popular vote and maybe a lot of these hyper conservative bigots will find out just how small of a faction they really are.

Gonna be hard to do, they've spent decades and decades rigging the system (just like our corporations have to avoid paying the taxes they SHOULD be paying), but the electoral college needs to go away. Then maybe we can work on stuff like a flat tax and EVERYONE paying their fair share, instead of the Prince John syndrome we have going on now.
Aug. 13th, 2012 01:34 am (UTC)
A constitutional republic has some benefits over a direct democracy. The electoral college serves a purpose and has worked for over 200 years. I would tread lightly with any changes to the constitution.
Aug. 13th, 2012 12:41 am (UTC)
Tea bagging
Please refrain from using this phrase. There are plenty of good, honest and loving people who are in the Tea Party. Not only that but the Tea Party is not just one collective group. There are nutcases in all movements and all political organizations. George, I am a huge fan of your books and respect your views on the issues. But please, do not use insulting terms like tea bagging or tea bagger. It's disrespectful and only serves to undermine your argument.

Name calling and false accusations in general do nothing but serve to stir up and further divide us. If we want true hope and change in this country, we need to work together and have honest discussions and debates about the issues. And we need to elect politicians who are not self serving. I agree with your point that some politicians want to win at all costs, but it's not just the Republican party. The Democrats are just as guilty. So let's stop squabbling about the Rs and the Ds and try to find some real solutions.
Aug. 13th, 2012 04:09 am (UTC)
Re: Tea bagging
It is worth noting that it was Tea Party members -- along with Fox News -- who coined the word "teabagger" for themselves when their movement first started. Admittedly, they did so in ignorance of the sexual connotations of the word.

To be sure, they only used the word for a couple of days, until Keith Obermann and other talking heads on MSNBC began to make relentless fun of them for the coinage. Then they hurriedly retreated, and adopted a "no, no, don't call us that" stance.

Which I was willing to respect, as far as that goes... until they decided to gild the lily with a little denial, and started rewriting history, saying, "No, we NEVER called ourselves that, that was all made up by the media." That part was just a flat out lie. I saw and heard tea party guys proudly calling themselves "teabaggers" with my very own ears and eyes, so I don't like being told it never happened. One guy I remember especially vividly, since he was wearing a hat with a dozen tea bags dangling down from it.

I hate Newspeak.

Edited at 2012-08-13 04:09 am (UTC)
(no subject) - fanoffun - Aug. 13th, 2012 07:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: After further review - rometag - Aug. 14th, 2012 05:02 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: After further review - grrm - Aug. 14th, 2012 05:14 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fanoffun - Aug. 14th, 2012 09:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Re: After further review - SNOzero - Aug. 14th, 2012 10:49 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: After further review - grrm - Aug. 14th, 2012 11:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
Aug. 13th, 2012 12:45 am (UTC)
I live in Pennsylvania, and I can tell you that the state made a very poor attempt at defending this Voter ID nonsense. Their testimony revealed that the law itself would stop absolutely no voter fraud, and they admitted that they had *not a single case* of voter impersonation. Not one example. When the Republican-controlled legislature rammed this law through, they claimed that very few people would be disenfranchised by it. However, once the law was enacted, it came out that nearly 10% of the Pennsylvania electorate did not meet the requirements set forth - over a million voters.

So, in order to stop a problem they admit doesn't exist, Republicans passed a law that would stop 1 in 10 voters from exercising their Constitutional rights, and, funny story!, that 1 in 10 happen to vote almost consistently Democratic.

Aug. 13th, 2012 02:32 am (UTC)
Only 1 in 10 vote for democrats? That's crazy. If this is a fact, only one out of the 10 disenfranchised voters are voting democrat. That would mean that the state is losing a lot of conservative votes. Not to mention that the majority of the "disenfranchised" wouldn't have voted anyway. The government never prosecutes voter fraud so there are no reliable stats on the matter. If there are no prosecutions, it's easy to announce that it's insignificant.
Imagine for instance that someone, I don't know, decided to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration. They could claim that the problem is fixed. But wait. If the other side takes control in November, the game will change.
All of sudden it will be the cons that are guilty of voter fraud and easy on the border. The never ending cycle.
They will keep distracting the sheep from the real objectives. Oh, look at the pretty shiny object but ignore the guy stealing your wallet. That guy over there punches kittens. I'm just trying to feed the starving grandma living in the alley. Point is, their is always a hidden motive behind every political action. The cons are not alone garbage. The libs are not alone garbage. Both are equally garbage. Mind you, their is a considerable amount of perfume sprayed to mask the smell but if your eyes work, you are foolish not to see both crawling out of the trash can. One day, a strange man or woman arrives out of nowhere with actual solutions. Neither party likes that person. "They will ruin everything. Get our cronies in the media to bash and make fun of them. The people will eat dog food if it's served with fries."
Advice, if you are willing. Find someone that both parties hate and throw all your support behind that person.
Turn off your TV and ignore commentators. They are all biased and none care a bit about your plight.
If I could be so bold. I will quote a legend.

"Open your mind, Open your mind, Open your mind, Open your mind, Open your mind."
- Kuato, Total recall.
(no subject) - pbagosy - Aug. 13th, 2012 12:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - fanoffun - Aug. 13th, 2012 07:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Aug. 13th, 2012 12:47 am (UTC)
Would you mind telling us a snippet or two about what you admired about Everett Dirksen, Clifford Case, Henry Cabot Lodge, William Scranton?
Aug. 13th, 2012 03:52 am (UTC)
Re: Interesting...
They were all men of integrity, for a start. They were loyal Republicans, but they put country above party, and break with the party line when they thought it was for the greater good.

LBJ would never have passed any of his landmark civil rights legislation without Dirksen, for instance.
Re: Interesting... - usul_md - Aug. 13th, 2012 10:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
Aug. 13th, 2012 01:08 am (UTC)
I don't get what the big deal is
I live in a blue state and have had to show ID when voting for as long as I've been able to vote. So obviously Democrats passed that law here sometime in the past. I really don't see why checking out a library book should require more ID than voting.

I get it that the very poor or some legal immigrants may not have a state issue ID, but I don't think the solution is to use the honor system for voting, and stick our heads in the sand like ostriches and pretend voting fraud does not exist. You yourself, GRRM, have joked on your blog that the Chicago way is to vote early and often, so you must know it exists to joke about it.

As far as I know only states with a history of slavery have to get permission from the feds to change voter ID laws, all the northern and western states can do so as they please, and I'm sure I can't be the only one living in a state that has had photo ID requirements for years.

Why not give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they merely want to stop voting fraud. Maybe you think this is the wrong way to stop voting fraud. Okay, what is your solution then? The honor system doesn't work, we need some system. If a photo ID isn't good enough, why not give some token when you register to vote or something. Mail a single use swipe card and outsource verification to VISA (who processes billions of transactions securely every year). The left will say the right is just trying to disenfranchise people, the right will say the left just wants to commit voter fraud. Lets assume both want honest and legal elections and figure out a system that is both open and secure.
Aug. 14th, 2012 07:03 am (UTC)
Re: I don't get what the big deal is
The honor system doesn't work, we need some system. If a photo ID isn't good enough, why not give some token when you register to vote or something.

I live in California and we do not have to show ID in order to vote and the honor system works fine for us.
Aug. 13th, 2012 01:36 am (UTC)
Third World System
Maybe, as a compromise, we need to go the third world system. Dye a finger purple when you vote. That way you don't need voter ID, but you ensure no one can vote more than once.

However... third world countries don't have absentee voting and we do, so how would you prevent people from voting by mail and then a second time in person? You'd have to address that.

It also wouldn't stop the fraud where people in uncompetitive districts or states are bussed to competitive ones.

But purple fingers would stop the easiest and most common fraud, if it stops the left/right silliness I'd be willing to deal with an indigo index finger, much to the chagrin of the anti-indigo crowd at WiC I'm sure.
Aug. 13th, 2012 03:15 am (UTC)
Wow! The vitriol out there is appalling! A lot of "they" and "them". Tsk! Tsk!

Regardless, good points on both sides as usual - but I have to go conservative this time. I truly am an independent.

Being from Chicago - I WISH someone would do something about voter ID - we really have too many dead people voting - seriously.

Also getting tired of people having excuse after excuse NOT to do something like be able to identify themselves. The bleeding hearts out there fall for it every time - must be that liberal guilt trip again.
No one is disenfranchising anyone - just asking for a little responsibility from people who would prefer not to have any.
Aug. 13th, 2012 01:41 pm (UTC)
Re: politics
Baloney burley8344 - I am from Chicago too and the myth that we have dead people voting is decades from reality. If you are a poor elderly person who has never had a car or a drivers license in the city you have no way to "prove" who you are. I suspect that you are from the suburbs and not the city. If you were you would a city person you would be able to envision the 80+ year old ladies and gentlemen who can barely make it to the polling place that I am talking about...
Re: politics - burley8344 - Aug. 13th, 2012 11:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
Aug. 13th, 2012 05:17 am (UTC)
I am so glad for this post and every comment you've made in it. /cheer :D Bravo, etc.
Aug. 13th, 2012 05:23 am (UTC)
Just found this editorial cartoon on the subject
Aug. 13th, 2012 06:05 am (UTC)
Currently it is normal for the state - any state - to distrust their citizens by default, and vice versa. I don't see how voting should be an exception.
Aug. 13th, 2012 06:21 am (UTC)
If that's true, it is very sad.
Aug. 13th, 2012 12:25 pm (UTC)
1) I know someone who had their vote "stolen" from them by someone committing voter fraud. How is requiring a picture ID racist/sexist/ageist/etc? I have yet to hear an explanation to this that bears even a token resemblance to reality. In Virginia all you need to do is show a bill. Any Fraudster could swing by my mailbox on election day, swipe the power bill, go vote my vote, and I would not know until I showed up to vote. Every "show your papers" proposal I've heard involves showing a driver's license, a government issued ID (which in the Commonwealth of Virginia runs like 10 bucks and you get it same-day), or the voter's card that the election commission mails to you free when you register to vote.

2) Stop the racism rants, all of you on the left. Take a second and look up the word "dissent" in the dictionary. I am a republican-leaning libertarian. I disagreed with policies under Carter and Clinton. I disagree with those same ideas/policies under Obama. I did not get called a racist for dissent until Obama was elected/inaugurated. There is a big difference. Unless I say something like "I don't like ___ policy because Obama is nothing but a stupid [racial slur I won't say]" you cannot call me a racist. Can you not counter my arguments of small government, low taxes, and personal responsibility that you need to try to throw me onto one of the third rails of politics (race)? I had hoped someone who WRITES for a living would be a little more... IMAGINATIVE in formulating an argument to convince me that I'm in the wrong.

In my neighborhood growing up, we all knew each other, the world has changed. I doubt you would recognize me walking down the street, even if I lived on your block.

It's easy to pick nits in the peanut gallery. How do you propose to 1) keep voter fraud from happening, and 2) not falling afoul of your police state argument?
Aug. 13th, 2012 01:10 pm (UTC)
Voter ID nonsense
The only thing that is more disgusting than despicable Republicans trying to win elections by voter suppression, is dishonorable Democrats trying to win elections by stuffing the ballot with ineligible votes. I mean truly, what is worse, trying to instigate the same ID-proof requirements on voters that must be shown to attend an Obama speaking event , or allowing anyone at all whether they be a non-US citizen, someone trying to vote twice, or even someone dead lo’ these many years to have a ballot cast in their name?
Mr. Martin – you must “show your papers” (passport) when you fly international, right? Last time I flew to Asia on business I had to keep my “papers” with me at all times in each foreign country I visited. Oh the horror, the shame and disgrace, it was truly a horrendous experience! Every time I make a deposit at my local bank, I have to “show my papers” (photo ID) to the clerk to get a receipt with a balance on it. Last year I bought a car, and those damn Nazi-Ford credit guys MADE me “show my papers” to get the car registered! Can you believe it?! And what about that neo-fascist Obama? Did you know that a person MUST “show their papers” to a bunch of thugs with automatic weapons at the gate to even get into see the One speak these days? No ID, no-get-to-see-Obama-speak. It’s truly unbelievable! I mean, it would really be nice is some Democrats would get rid of all these photo-ID requirements at all of these bigoted, racist sponsored speaking events!
Now Mr. Martin, if voting in our elections is our “most basic and important” right, and I agree 100%, voting is much MUCH more important than getting on an airplane, buying a car, taking out a loan or attending a political rally – then why should we be LESS vigilant at insuring the eligibility of voters than we are of all of these other actions? The only obvious explanation for why Democrats don’t want such miniscule, common sense, free, proof of ID requirements put in place for voting is that they intend to stuff the ballot with invalid votes.
By the way, I am very glad to hear of your admiration of Barry Goldwater, no doubt you would vote for him were he still running for office. (color me skeptical)
Thank God you’re “way too busy for political rants” these days is all I can say.
Aug. 13th, 2012 04:54 pm (UTC)
Re: Voter ID nonsense
You may think you are proving a point by listing all these places where one must "show paper," but actually you are simply proving my point.

I hate all that crap too.

I don't know how old you are... but I am old enough to remember when none of this was true. Even in the late 60s and early 70s, when I reached my young adulthood, I could pay my hotel bill at worldcon with a personal check (and did), buy my tickets at the airport with a personal check (ditto), walk onto my flight without being scanned, stapled, and anally probed. In the bank, my teller greeted me by name. I never had to show my driver's license at ANY of these places. Which is a good thing, since I did not have one. I did not learn to drive until my late 20s, when I moved to Iowa.

We have lost so much personal freedom... and often it seems to me that the younger generation does not even realize it. In the world they know, "show your papers" has become routine.
Re: Voter ID nonsense - think4yerslf - Aug. 13th, 2012 05:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Voter ID nonsense - grrm - Aug. 13th, 2012 06:12 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Voter ID nonsense - think4yerslf - Aug. 13th, 2012 06:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
Here's the difference: - parrismcb - Aug. 13th, 2012 07:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Here's the difference: - think4yerslf - Aug. 13th, 2012 08:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Voter ID nonsense - Neville Ross - Aug. 14th, 2012 09:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Voter ID nonsense - tangycosmos - Aug. 14th, 2012 01:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Voter ID nonsense - grrm - Aug. 14th, 2012 06:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Voter ID nonsense - tangycosmos - Aug. 14th, 2012 08:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Voter ID nonsense - grrm - Aug. 14th, 2012 08:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
Aug. 13th, 2012 01:34 pm (UTC)
Republican Tactics
Thank you George for highighting this issue. Here in the City of Chicago, as in many cities, a significant number of people do not have cars, do not drive, and do not have licenses. This is particularly the case with the elderly urban dwellers. They have little means to "prove" who they are. The Republican tactics have always been dirty, but this one is particularly bad. And now with Paul Ryan on the ticket they will take away Medicare from the eldery as well. People need to stop watching FOX NEWS which is nothing but a brainwashing propaganda machine. Try watching C-SPAN (can be boring but you can see time and again how the Republicans block anything rational the Independents and Democrats want to do) and see what the Republican politicians are really doing in Washington. They are slimy and scary. Thanks for bringing this issue to your fans.
Aug. 13th, 2012 11:45 pm (UTC)
Re: Republican Tactics
hey Winter - did C-span tell you that Ryan was going to take away Medicare - or was it Andrea Mitchell - or Rachel Madcow? Get a grip. I think you have Fox News confused with MSNBC - ow wait it's just NBC now isn't it? Wonder why?
Fox "news" is not as bad as you say it is - they have broken stories you would NEVER have heard abpout in the "mainstream media" I do not recall them ever having to issue an apology or retraction either.
Fox "opinion" shows are a different matter - Hannity being a prime example of partisanship. Kinda like the entire NBC news division.
Re: Republican Tactics - parrismcb - Aug. 14th, 2012 01:04 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Republican Tactics - burley8344 - Aug. 14th, 2012 06:55 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Republican Tactics - winterwarrior - Aug. 14th, 2012 01:59 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Republican Tactics - burley8344 - Aug. 14th, 2012 07:23 am (UTC) - Expand
Aug. 13th, 2012 01:56 pm (UTC)
Voter ID and the Poll Tax
This may get buried, but one point I've found compelling to raise in these conversations. The supposed free IDs, as you mentioned, require other IDs that are not free to get. It can cost up to $50 to get the certified birth certificate you need. The infamous poll taxes? Somewhere around $10-$20 in today's dollars. Yeah.
Aug. 13th, 2012 04:25 pm (UTC)
You know what I really loathe about American politics? That if you disagree with someone, they are automatically stupid, unpatriotic, and immoral. The concept of "the loyal opposition" does not exist. We have to smear the other side instead of saying, "We both want this country to be the best it can be, but we have different opinions on how to get there."
Jose Sarmento
Aug. 13th, 2012 05:18 pm (UTC)
Still don't get the anti-ID stance...
How different is it to have your name and address stored on a voter registry vs. having your name and a 12-digit code stored on a nationwide ID registry?

My national ID card has my name (no address), photo (which is not stored in a registry I believe, just for face-to-name matching when you present the card), fingerprint (ibid, except if you have a criminal record), and my taxpayer's / social security / national ID number and date of birth. We can use it in a bar to prove our age (not that I've been asked in quite a while...), we can use it to get a passport, to get health care, to vote, to pay taxes, to apply for a pension or to pick it up from the post office, to open a bank account...

Sure, my name and numbers information are stored somewhere, but neither myself nor - seriously - anyone I know feels in the least that their freedom is hamstrung by the card in any way.

IMHO the benefits far outweigh the downsides... and it feels a bit of an oversimplification to say "We don't need a "solution" since we do not have a problem." and then end up resorting to the DL for the myriad of very plausible daily life situations where a national ID card would come in handy.

Everything else you said - I'm with you. :)
Daniel Colton
Aug. 13th, 2012 06:15 pm (UTC)
Disagree / Partial
There is a mixture in message here, I think. I am taking license to infer.
Disagreement with required ID.
Disagreement with the timing.
The timing can't be defended. With elections so close, efforts to target certain voting blocks is just obvious maliciousness.
But with the ID issue, I find that another can of worms. I'm for having a government ID be presented to vote. I get that some people are afraid that ID will grow into a tool that will get leveraged and used by an evil government. Ok, so lets make the ID simple/basic. No RFID's, innert paper with it's fancy water marks, etc.
If you're afraid you're giving up liberty and privacy by being required to have an ID then you obviously aren't weighing that fear against other very real fears. Just go ahead and leave the fraud door open on elections and you'll see that votes get cast in directions you don't agree with either. Now you've got law and leaders hijacked out from under you. And you let it happen.
Wave good-bye to your liberty.
Having a government ID in everyone's hands has pros and cons. I'm giving an anecdotal example of how everyone having an ID would protect at least one of our liberties. The preserved power of my one vote.
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