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Meanwhile, Back at the War

Puppygate is the gift that keeps on giving... or taking away, in this case. Just when you think you're out, they drag you back in.

Anyway, the battles continue to rage, all over the internet.

Connie Willis has issued a statement. If there is anyone worth listening to about the Hugo Awards, it is Connie. She has won more of them than anyone else. She has presented lots of them too. Her presentations are always hilarious, if excruciating for the poor sods who have been nominated. She is the funniest woman in science fiction. You would think that Connie might be someone that both sides in this fight would listen to with respect, since (1) her politics are liberal, (2) she is religious, a practicing Christian who attends church regularly and sings in the choir. So here is what she has to say:

http://azsf.net/cwblog/?p=116

David Gerrold has also weighed in on the debate. David, of course, is an award-winning novelist and screenwriter, who first broke into the field on Gene Roddenberry's original STAR TREK, for which he penned "The Trouble With Tribbles." He also played a crucial role in the creation of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION, and won all sorts of awards for his short story, "The Martian Child." And of course, David Gerrold is also the Professional Guest of Honor at Sasquan, this year's Worldcon. Here are some of his thoughts:

https://www.facebook.com/david.gerrold/posts/10205360779551319?pnref=story

Some of you will want to comment on what David and Connie had to say. Some of you, needless to say, will want to disagree. That's fine, but once again, I expect a respectful tone, no personal attacks, no insults. Don't go there, or your posts will be deleted. Also don't send me long screeds about how you mislike my calls for civility. If you want to spit and fume and denounce, hey, there are plenty of other blogs on the internet where you can do that.

Connie and David are both friends of mine. I have known David since the early 70s, Connie since the late 70s. Connie, actually, is a very good friend of mine. (Don't be fooled if you have seen us ripping on one another at cons. That's the George and Connie show. It's a bit, like Jack Benny being cheap. We have fun with it. I love Connie, and I think she likes me okay too. She does have more Hugos than I do, which is very annoying and has given her a big head, but I love her anyway, and besides, the one time we went head-to-head for a rocket, I won).

That being said, do please note: I am not Connie Willis. I am not David Gerrold. Their thoughts are their thoughts, and my thoughts... well, I have posted my thoughts at great length here, you guys should know them by now. I agree with much of what Connie and David are saying, but not every word by any means.

I am going to have some further thoughts of my own in the post that follows.

Comments

( 15 comments )
lornkanaga
Apr. 15th, 2015 10:42 pm (UTC)
Ms. Willis has that right. I would recommend she take a look at Brad Torgersen's "Tribalism is as Tribalism Does" to get the other side's perspective. I would also recommend his "Personal Unpersoning" for his view on Vox Day and "Vox's Visigoths." Basically, by making this all about Day, she's giving him power; if she rose above that and concentrated on the authors' work, perhaps she could find a silver lining after all. Perhaps.

As for Mr. Gerrold, well, he's certainly got an opinion, and he's quite, well, quite.

I'm amazed at how many people on the "anti-puppy" side are letting Vox Day live in their head rent free. He's a bully, and bullies don't deserve it. He wants everyone afraid of him, and that's the last thing anyone should do; he wants everyone angry at him, and he's just not worth it. Let go of the anger and fear, and Day becomes powerless.

Edited at 2015-04-15 11:05 pm (UTC)
kurtdbusiek
Apr. 16th, 2015 12:13 am (UTC)
Let go of the anger and fear, and the nominations are still overwhelmingly dominated by the Rabid Puppies slate. That's not "powerless."

What you're basically saying is that if Connie Willis would just do what Vox wants, and treat the nominations as if no one had gamed them, then everything would be fine. But it wouldn't be, because the nominations were gamed, and she doesn't want to validate that.
kalimac
Apr. 16th, 2015 12:38 am (UTC)
Unfortunately, you can't make somebody who's hijacked the Hugo Awards go away by refusing to think of him.
lornkanaga
Apr. 16th, 2015 04:02 am (UTC)
To put it mildly, the organizers at Worldcon brought this on. They knew about SP3 and RP *long* before the nominations closed. They saw the fan turnout for SP2, and they saw the reactions from Scalzi et. al. after the 2014 Awards were announced, so they should have known all that would galvanize Correia and Day, and their fans. They could have gone to both Torgersen and Day and said, "Please, double the size of your slates. Give your fans more recommendations to choose from. We know you're angry, we want you and your fans to participate, but if you sweep the nominations you're just going to tick everyone off." Torgersen and Correia would have done that, because they are reasonable people, and they might have even persuaded Day to do the same thing, especially if the Worldcon organizers had asked nicely. No one asked nicely. No one even asked.
kalimac
Apr. 16th, 2015 09:11 am (UTC)
This thesis, by which Puppies are not responsible for anything they do, but non-Puppies are responsible for everything Puppies do, is not one I can accept.
jmatonak
Apr. 16th, 2015 10:11 am (UTC)
"...they should have known it would galvanize..."

Your argument seems to be that politicking about the Hugos wasn't rewarded *enough* before- that the previous years of Sad Puppies should have led to some kind of special deference to the organizers. I am not persuaded, and I think any attempt to reach out would have been looked upon by the Puppies as more evidence of conspiracy and persecution.
kurtdbusiek
Apr. 16th, 2015 08:33 pm (UTC)
Right. It's not the people who did it, it's the people who didn't go out of their way to beg them not to.

They didn't "ask nicely." And as we know, if you don't ask threatening people nicely, whatever happens is your fault.

They didn't ask nicely. They didn't ask at all. Strangely, they didn't ask the Evil SJW Conspiracy anything nicely, either, or at all. Or ask anyone else nicely or at all.

But no, the Puppies should have been treated differently from everyone else. Negotiated with. Because in the name of fairness and even-handedness, they were going to wreck the Hugos unless they got special treatment. So they should have gotten that special treatment. Having been begged, they surely would have been gracious. And the Rabid Puppies might have too, because...well, hell, it's a fantasy, why not just imagine it?

It's all the organizers' fault for not truckling to the vandals.

And of course, the fact that the RP slate did even better than the SP slate means that anyone complaining about this should have just gotten the Sads to back off by begging them, and bringing up the Rabids at all is unfair and mean to the Sads.

Sure, that all makes sense.

Edited at 2015-04-17 05:14 pm (UTC)
querldox
Apr. 17th, 2015 03:12 am (UTC)
Really? It's all Sasquan's fault for not pleading with the Puppies' organizers to not damage/taint/potentially destroy the Hugos?

Words fail me.
Emma Gaia Seljan
Apr. 15th, 2015 11:59 pm (UTC)
I had never heard of Brad Torgersen, Larry Correia and Vox Day before the Puppygate. I'm italian and unfortunately I'm too far to attend the Worldcon and be involved in the Hugo Award. But I want to thank them for their incredible effort and their list of worthy authors. It makes more simple for me to be sure that I will never buy their books, even by mistake.
laurablues
Apr. 16th, 2015 02:08 pm (UTC)
I understand your feelings about this, but then those writers become their victims as well. Some could be good writers and not necessarily complicit in what was done "on their behalf".
thefirstalicat
Apr. 16th, 2015 02:16 am (UTC)
Connie Willis is one of the authors whose work I will buy in hardcover the moment it's released, and read it as soon as possible. (You are in that category too, but I must say there are probably about 50 writers on my hard-cover first-release list, most of them mystery actually.) I will respect everything she says about this, and I respect everything you've said about it, of course.

But it makes me feel very, very sad.
waltzwithme
Apr. 16th, 2015 02:55 am (UTC)

Hi, Mr. Martin. Thank you for writing about all of this. Your efforts to explain everything are unbelievably helpful, as are the Worldcon history lessons. Hang in there!

hydragyrum6
Apr. 16th, 2015 07:37 am (UTC)
I would wish for an "Alternative Hugo" this year
What I mean is: give out a second set of slightly different Rockets.
Let the past Hugo winners and looser nominate some books & stories.

And then let the Loncon members also vote on that.

If someone like Connie Willis would hand out the alternative award I expect it would be more than a soothing token to all that didn't make it on the slate because of puppygate.

noybusiness
Apr. 16th, 2015 12:38 pm (UTC)
Connie Willis was hilarious as Master of Ceremonies at the 2011 World Fantasy Convention.
nelson_rathbone
Apr. 16th, 2015 06:31 pm (UTC)
Rockets or Nuclear Missiles?
They aren't giving out rockets as awards anymore the new prize is a nuclear missile.
( 15 comments )

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