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TSA Insanity

  • Aug. 10th, 2006 at 2:30 PM
Spain
The news coming out of England this morning is depressing, and the reactions to it scary. I am glad that Parris returned home from Ireland on Monday, else she might be caught up in the madness at Heathrow. I am of course pleased that the British caught a bunch of terrorists, and look forward to seeing them tried, and the evidence of their plots (these liquid explosives and electronic triggers) brought forward in a court of law, but I am aghast at the "security" measures that are now being taken in the wake of those arrests.

I have always hated airline "security." Step by step, year by year, the TSA and its predecessors have taken away more and more of our freedoms, subjecting millions of perfectly innocent travellers to searches and interrogations and other hassles in the vague hopes of catching hijackers (in the old days) and terrorists (these days). Even if it worked, the price would be too high, but of course it does not work. It has never worked. All of the 9/11 killers strolled through airport "security" without a problem, yet little old ladies in wheelchairs are pulled from line and patted down, people who have never committeed a crime in their life are being forced to remove their shoes and belts and empty their pockets, and cigarette lighters and toy guns and Swiss army knives are being confiscated and sold (yes, that's what they do with those lighters they take from people, they SELL them and keep the bucks).

And now, in the wake of the arrests in England, a new wave of rules and prohibitions are about to be foisted on us by TSA -- no liquids or gels in carry on, no electronic devices of any kind, no ipods, no cell-phones, no cameras (some reports are even claiming that books are being banned, though that makes no sense whatsoever to me). You are supposed to put your electronics in your checked baggage, they say. Your UNLOCKED checked baggage, another infuriating rule foisted on us by the TSA. And of course what happens if your electronics are damaged and stolen en route? Why, nothing... the airlines take no responsibility, and TSA won't either. Will TSA start confiscating iPods and cellphones and laptops at the security gates now? Hey, those will certainly bring in a lot more dosh than lighters when they're sold.

I wonder how long this prohibition on electronics will last, and how far it will extend? If this truly includes ALL electronics, it will effectively end my own ability to travel by air. Forget about book tours in the future, forget about seeing me at any con that I cannot drive to. Right now, I am even worried about how I am going to get to worldcon... though LA is close enough so that, if worse comes to worst, I will be able to drive. Obviously, that won't apply next year for Yokahama, if these new rules become permanent.

What's next, I wonder? Anal probes, x-rays, body cavity searches? Have we become such a nation of sheep that we will line up and swallow all this meekly? If so, let's change the words in our national anthem. Instead of "land of the free and home of the brave," maybe "land of the safe and home of the scared" would do.

Comments

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[info]the_chimp_pimp wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:13 pm (UTC)
This kind of thing is all too indicitive of the 'society ruled by fear' tactics that our government has been using all too frequently in recent years...

Disturbing, to say the least.
[info]maryling wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:13 pm (UTC)
Ben Franklin said it best: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
[info]horsey5588 wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 10:04 pm (UTC)
Thank you. <3
(no subject) - [info]aehallh - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:14 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]spiralled - Aug. 11th, 2006 01:29 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]froda_baggins - Aug. 11th, 2006 02:25 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]omegar - Aug. 11th, 2006 09:19 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]aserene wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:16 pm (UTC)
I agree with you, I think what is being done isn't going to protect us anymore, than any other solution, it's just going to make people angry. I live in NY and in order to leave a NY airport (any NY airport) You must have a passport, driver's lisences won't get you on a plane anymore, and on top of that they seem to pull anymore between 16 and 30 for pat downs and searches of all luggages. At this point, I think I'd rather drive places, even with gas over 3 bucks.
[info]isis_newton wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:16 pm (UTC)
My first thought when I heard about this today: if I couldn't take a book on a flight I wouldn't go. But I don't think that airlines can afford to maintain this 'maximum level of security' for too long anyhow.

I wonder if it were only to affect transatlantic flights (which was the supposed target which led to this further clamp-down of security) then what percentage of Americans is it going to cause a problem for?


Will we be getting the boat to Amsterdam after all?
[info]werthead wrote:
Aug. 11th, 2006 05:39 pm (UTC)
Train?
At least Amsterdam is close enough that we can Eurostar it without too many problems. I'm more worried about Spain in September. 10-12 hours by train or 2 hours by plane, but being bored and not being able to read...hmmm.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:18 pm (UTC)
Electronics
Currently the TSA is only banning liquids and gels as can be seen here: http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/threat-change.shtm. Electronics are still allowed in the US. It is just at Heathrow that electronics are banned.

George, you are a phenomenal writer, but please spare me the knee jerk reactions and do your research.
[info]lawdogman wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Electronics
Nice anonymous post.
The point of his post is still the same. A steady loss of freedoms.
Re: Electronics - [info]grrm - Aug. 10th, 2006 09:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]pogodragon - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]tepintzin - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]creativedv8tion - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]stephen_dedman - Aug. 11th, 2006 02:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]sasha_davidovna - Aug. 11th, 2006 01:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - (Anonymous) - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]thesideshow - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:58 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]werthead - Aug. 11th, 2006 05:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]loveandgarbage - Aug. 11th, 2006 03:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]scarletdemon - Aug. 11th, 2006 06:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]loveandgarbage - Aug. 11th, 2006 06:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]scarletdemon - Aug. 11th, 2006 06:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]loveandgarbage - Aug. 11th, 2006 07:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]scarletdemon - Aug. 11th, 2006 07:34 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]ravan - Aug. 11th, 2006 11:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]scarletdemon - Aug. 11th, 2006 11:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]duae - Aug. 12th, 2006 07:53 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]scarletdemon - Aug. 12th, 2006 09:26 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - (Anonymous) - Dec. 15th, 2006 03:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]themadfish - Aug. 11th, 2006 11:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]scarletdemon - Aug. 11th, 2006 11:29 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]themadfish - Aug. 11th, 2006 11:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]jonathanmoore - Aug. 31st, 2006 08:48 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]kremmen - Aug. 12th, 2006 03:59 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]jonathanmoore - Aug. 31st, 2006 08:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]mariness - Aug. 11th, 2006 11:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - (Anonymous) - Aug. 12th, 2006 12:00 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]kremmen - Aug. 12th, 2006 03:53 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - (Anonymous) - Aug. 12th, 2006 02:02 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Electronics - [info]antarcticlust - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:45 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]baine_darkwolf wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:19 pm (UTC)
Hah, about right!
[info]kingofmars wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:19 pm (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly. Airlines are becoming their own fascist states, if they aren't that already. That's what bothers me about flying, way more than crashing or terrorists. Why should I be scared of getting in trouble if I haven't committed a crime?

Stupid world. :p
[info]blanchemains wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:19 pm (UTC)
I am sure you don't remember me- but I am the United employee who didn't go back to work for 2 years after 9/11.
Take it from someone who thinks the more security measures, the better: this won't last.

Customers will take it for a while, but as soon as the threat level drops down from orange to yellow, it will be back to business as usual. The airlines are well aware that customers won't tolerate this for very long.

(SO glad I don't work there any more!)
[info]ohilya wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:21 pm (UTC)
Wait wait - *laptops* are being prohibited?

Bloody laptops?

Is there:
a) legislation prohibiting them?
b) official airline policies prohibiting them?

And will someone please explain to me why Swiss army knives are confiscated? I had mine taken from me when departing from Trudeau. And when departing from Logan, had my shoes checked (The chap before me, wearing sandals, was told to remove his footwear as well).

If there isn't any official legislation in any country, and there isn't any official, private airline policy, then why do they persist in acting as if there were, and what arguments may be presented which will let us merry travellers continue along our merry little way?
[info]gamerchick wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:28 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [info]ohilya - Aug. 11th, 2006 07:13 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matgb - Aug. 11th, 2006 09:36 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]chrisbillett - Aug. 11th, 2006 09:10 am (UTC) Expand
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[info]gregmce wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:22 pm (UTC)
I'm genuinely curious to see if there's any sort of spike in AmTrak sales. Don't get me wrong, AmTrak is fairly dreadful but I can only imagine that for things like the DC-NYC-Boston business corridor, businessmen who've been taking the various shuttles might find it easier to just spend the extra time on the train.
[info]grrm wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:38 pm (UTC)
Amtrak
Amtrak may be dreadful compared to European trains like the French TGV or the German ICE, but it is still great compared to what you suffer when you fly these days. The conducters are friendly and helpful, there's food, the seats are large and comfortable... Parris and I take the Acela Express from Boston to NYC every year, and it's always a great trip.

The problem is that our government has failed to support the rail system in the States, so Amtrak has been cutting one route after another for the last thirty years, and now they hardly go anywhere.

If the government had given Amtrak anywhere near the same level of support they have given the airlines, we'd have the best trains in the world.

Of course, it is only a matter of time until someone officious decides we need "security" on the trains as well.
Re: Amtrak - [info]lodessa - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:24 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Amtrak - [info]ohilya - Aug. 11th, 2006 09:22 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Amtrak - [info]falseprophet81 - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Amtrak - [info]radial_jives - Aug. 11th, 2006 01:37 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Amtrak - [info]ygolonac - Aug. 11th, 2006 06:14 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]sshi - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:28 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Aug. 12th, 2006 12:51 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]smofbabe wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:23 pm (UTC)
And now, in the wake of the arrests in England, a new wave of rules and prohibitions are about to be foisted on us by TSA -- no liquids or gels in carry on, no electronic devices of any kind, no ipods, no cell-phones, no cameras (some reports are even claiming that books are being banned, though that makes no sense whatsoever to me).

Stephen and I are hoping that at the very least, the book restriction will be lifted in a week. The thought of a 16+-hour flight with no books, music, or DVDs has Stephen feeling homicidal. I think the only hope would be tranquilizers and sleeping pills.
[info]coleoptera wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:24 pm (UTC)
If they ban electronics on flights in the US, there better be a full bar available with no (or limited) charge on board.

Someone on my flight from Portland, OR to Atlanta, GA (almost 5 hours) with 3 or 4 kids this week. Can you imagine doing that with no electronic entertainment in this day and age?
[info]tersa wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 10:03 pm (UTC)
My initial reaction was: the business travellers will never stand for it. And business travellers are the backbone of the airlines bottom line.

Fortunately, the electonic ban hasn't been implemented...yet.
(no subject) - [info]anonymisty - Aug. 13th, 2006 02:21 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]ravenstromdans wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:25 pm (UTC)
I'm sure it would upset me more if I had anywhere to go; as it is, I already don't much care to leave my home. If I had the money to travel, I would still have to conjure up the inclination and given how paranoid I am, I doubt that would ever happen unless I was forced into it, like I was while in the Service.
[info]redushab wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:28 pm (UTC)
Luckily, they have yet to institute some of those, currently in the US it's just liquids, we'll have to wait and see if this changes.

On the other hand, I am very, very glad that I'm driving to Santa Fe for school this fall, rather than flying. And have no need to fly again until November. With any luck, this will have died down by then.
[info]dalinae wrote:
Aug. 11th, 2006 04:00 pm (UTC)
Oh it should die off a bit after the elections. In the US at least.

But they are not going to lower that threat level until every last ballot is counted in November.
[info]sharp_kun wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:29 pm (UTC)
As far as I'm aware the current restrictions here in the UK are temporary. I have no problem with that. Given that a plot seems to have existed, and there may still be members out there I see no problem in cracking down while the police investigate more.

Look at it this way, suppose the airlines carried on as normal and one bomber who hadn't been arrested got through. A lot of people would be asking why security wasn't increased, given the police had ample knowlege of a threat. Is temporary hassle that bad?
[info]grrm wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:41 pm (UTC)
temprary hassles
The problem is, temporary solutions have a way of becoming permanent.

I am old enough to remember when the first airport "security" came in. We were told those were temporary measures too. In that case, "temporary" has turned out to mean "for the rest of your life."
Re: temprary hassles - [info]antonia_tiger - Aug. 11th, 2006 07:44 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]egowumpus - Aug. 16th, 2006 02:08 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]breadbox wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:31 pm (UTC)
they can take my laptop away from me when they pry it from my cold dead hands...


seriously. i'm buying a freaking boat... screw this airfare buisness.
[info]spiralled wrote:
Aug. 11th, 2006 01:37 am (UTC)
I like the way you think.
[info]lodessa wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:34 pm (UTC)
This makes me seriously consider not considering east coast graduate schools and cancelling my planned trip out there in October. I think I'd go mad if I had to sit on the plane with nothing to do.

It also just makes me really sad that every time something bad happens in this day and age I don't get worried or upset about the catastrophe (or threat of one) itself but instead have to worry about have kind of outragerous reaction the powers that be are going to have and what they are going to use it to justify.

Next thing you know they'll outlaw clothes on planes and everyone will have to change into disposable (but probably expensive) hospital gown things to wear on their flights or something.
[info]_standback_ wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:38 pm (UTC)
Frankly, the fact that they caught 21 terrorists inspires me with at least a small measure of confidence. Maybe they're not doing it right... but this time, at least, they succeeded where it counts.

Even if it worked, the price would be too high, but of course it does not work.
An infinity of annoyances in exchange for 21 planefuls of people? On this day, of all days, that's not a price I think is "too high."
[info]pecunium wrote:
Aug. 11th, 2006 12:06 am (UTC)
But the "annoyances" aren't what caught them.

It's not as if the screeners at Heathrow confiscated someone carrying gelginite masquerading as hair pomade, but rather the cops arrested them before they left for the airport.

TK
(no subject) - [info]hereward - Aug. 11th, 2006 03:00 am (UTC) Expand
::contriteness:: - [info]_standback_ - Aug. 11th, 2006 06:47 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]xnamkrad - Aug. 11th, 2006 04:18 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]marared wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:39 pm (UTC)
I'm flying out to WorldCon in two weeks myself. I'll probably have to check my luggage for the first time in years. I bought myself a nice narrow wheeled bag that fits beautifully in overhead bins, which forces me to pack light and ensures that it (and all of its contents!) arrives at my destination with me.

I'll check TSA's list of restrictions the night before - if they're still fussing about small electronics in carryons, I'm just going to leave my camera and my ipod home, and... well... pack the cell phone, because I have a dozen people to keep in touch with the whole week. At least that's cheaply replaced if something happens. If they're still banning BOOKS, I will be gibbering like a loon when I get off the plane.

I'm accustomed to having to take off my shoes, though - I wear low-profile Docs. heh.
[info]valashain wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:41 pm (UTC)
All those checks really make you feel welcome in whatever place it is you are flying to, don't they. Personally I'd take my chances of getting blown up in mid air over having to take my shoes off every single time I go though one of those checks but I suppose that is not an option for the decision makers. Very annoying though, I'm glad I don't have any trips planned at the moment.
[info]mzjae wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:42 pm (UTC)
Being in the heart of good old jolly England myself (and stuck on the M25 today with all of the Ho-Ha at the Airports) I'm sitting listening to the news. They have banned *Books* and *Newpapers* from Flights for the Forseeable future!

I hope that this is only temporary, as there is nothin worse than forgetting a good book on a long flight :(
[info]grrm wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:50 pm (UTC)
banning books
And believe it or not, if this lasts long, it could also have a devastating effect on British publishing. A huge amount of books are sold at airports. Take that away from a business where the profit margins are already paper thin, and it could well drive some publishers into bankruptcy.

This prohibition makes absolutely no sense to me. What the hell is a terrorist going to do with a book? Threaten to read some really bad prose unless the crew fly into a building?

Re: banning books - [info]harker207 - Aug. 10th, 2006 09:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: banning books - [info]hippoiathanatoi - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: banning books - [info]elfbabe - Aug. 11th, 2006 02:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: banning books - [info]ohilya - Aug. 11th, 2006 07:15 am (UTC) Expand
Re: banning books - [info]hippoiathanatoi - Aug. 11th, 2006 08:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: banning books - [info]ohilya - Aug. 11th, 2006 09:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: banning books - [info]rawsharkmk2 - Aug. 12th, 2006 01:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: banning books - [info]kelyantar - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:25 pm (UTC) Expand
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Well ... - (Anonymous) - Aug. 23rd, 2006 06:09 pm (UTC) Expand
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[info]mizkit wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:42 pm (UTC)
What bewilders me is that I've actually talked to people who were happy to take off their shoes and yadda yadda because they genuinely felt safer going through all these motions.

Granted, the conversations didn't last long, because reducing me to saying, "But..but...buh?" isn't much of a way to keep a topic going.
[info]tersa wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 10:06 pm (UTC)
I guess living with someone who works for an airline and knowing someone who worked for the TSA has made me cynical about all of it.

I *know* it's all just there to make people *feel* safer...not actually make it safer. :P
[info]wolflady26 wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:51 pm (UTC)
Amen. The security measures don't actually make you safer, but they do make you _feel_ safer. While my shoes are removed on every flight, I know someone who breezed through a flight with a knife in his carry-on (it was an accident, only revealed when he was home again).

But you know, surely if they are thorough enough to check shoes, they must be thorough enough to catch weapons! At least, in the public's eyes.

Bah. What pablum.
[info]pixelfish wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 10:56 pm (UTC)
My ex-boyfriend wandered through airport security about five or six times with an exacto knife in his pocket. (He's an artist, and it's in with his pens and pencils and erasers--just another tool of the craft.) Apparently the xrays never picked it up.
(no subject) - [info]slyhell - Aug. 11th, 2006 01:59 pm (UTC) Expand
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[info]aulus_poliutos wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:56 pm (UTC)
Just well the US is off my list of places to go since Bush rules the place anyway. And I'm seriously considering to take the 12 hours train ride from my place in Germany to Winchester/UK instead of flying in October.
[info]antarcticlust wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 10:47 pm (UTC)
Hey, don't hold it against the rest of us!
(no subject) - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:09 pm (UTC) Expand
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[info]carad_elmare wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 09:58 pm (UTC)
Geesh... I hope this doesn't hold out for long.

I remember right after 9/11 my mother got her old Swiss Army Knife(which she bought the same summer she met my father) taken away from her. I was peeved then, but the possibility that it was sold renews the annoyance.

This kind of reminds me of how everyone was afraid of knitting needles being taken on board and used for Evil (tm) despite the fact that mechanical pencils could make better puncture wounds and laptop cables would be better suited to strangle a man than the tiny cable on the circular ones.

Why doesn't this country have a better rail system? Europe had great trains that were actually used for travel, and I'd much rather go cross country that way that sit through 8 hours of security lines.

Now I'm going to vent my anger by watching or reading "V for Vendetta" and hoping this clears up before I have to take any long trips
[info]alexvdl wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2006 10:04 pm (UTC)
Out of curiousity what did you think they did with it/what would you prefer they did with it after taking it?
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confiscated and sold - [info]grrm - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:47 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:13 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]carad_elmare - Aug. 11th, 2006 12:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]redushab - Aug. 11th, 2006 12:55 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]marared - Aug. 11th, 2006 01:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]anam_cara_ - Aug. 11th, 2006 02:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 11th, 2006 02:23 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]anam_cara_ - Aug. 11th, 2006 02:30 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 11th, 2006 02:41 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]thegeneralerin - Aug. 12th, 2006 05:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]ironymaiden - Aug. 12th, 2006 04:02 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - [info]constant_reader - Aug. 12th, 2006 11:23 am (UTC) Expand
Re: confiscated and sold - (Anonymous) - Aug. 12th, 2006 02:26 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]hippoiathanatoi - Aug. 11th, 2006 08:04 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]carad_elmare - Aug. 11th, 2006 05:35 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:05 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]tersa - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:06 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:10 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]carad_elmare - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:18 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:30 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]carad_elmare - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:37 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:41 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]carad_elmare - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:45 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:02 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]carad_elmare - Aug. 10th, 2006 11:47 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]aulus_poliutos - Aug. 11th, 2006 12:00 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]misplacedmind - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:28 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]carad_elmare - Aug. 10th, 2006 10:43 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]visp - Aug. 11th, 2006 07:16 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]dybbuk67 - Aug. 11th, 2006 04:48 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]locke_cole - Aug. 11th, 2006 04:52 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]antonia_tiger - Aug. 11th, 2006 07:54 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]timill - Aug. 11th, 2006 09:16 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Aug. 11th, 2006 03:08 pm (UTC) Expand
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