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Joe Should Go

I wish I was a United States Senator, so I could introduce a bill to strip Joe Lieberman of his American citizenship.

You know, Golden Rule and all that. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. What goes around comes around.

Joe Lieberman = Al Gore's Biggest Mistake.



May. 8th, 2010 11:41 am (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
Something tells me that 2819 deaths(or 168 deaths in Oklahoma city)in one day due to terrorism is a little more heinous then people losing jobs to the Chinese or because of Wall Street greed. Would you consider it greater harm then what Ken Lay did at Enron if that SUV blew up and killed someone? I would because I would trade 100,000 American jobs if it saved someone's life.
May. 9th, 2010 10:41 pm (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
The problem with your argument is you are doing a bait and switch. This bill was not proposed after the World Trade Center or the Murrah Federal Building bombing and yet those are the things you mention. And yet that is what you are using for your example. What, it took them 9 or 15 years respectively to come up with this bill and that is the impetus for it? No, the impetus for this bill was the attempt to use a poorly crafted bomb to bring harm to a tourist area in New York by a recently naturalized citizen of the US.

The problem is you are forgetting the impact of those 100,000 jobs (and it is actually more in the area of 10,000,000 jobs) which has a cascade effect on far more than one person losing his life . . . or a hundred people losing their lives. Oh, and by the way, what Ken Lay did did lead to people losing their lives. People died from heat exhaustion in California during the rolling blackouts in 2001. People die when they lose their health care when they lose their jobs. People die from stress, etc etc.

We think because Enron and Wall Street are white collar crimes and there is no knife being plunged into someone's chest that there are no deadly consequences to their actions. I assure you, those who have committed suicide over losing their homes are killed by the impact of Wall Street derivative trading as much as by the noose they kill themselves with.
May. 10th, 2010 09:59 pm (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
There is no bait and switch here. Terrorism is the bait of my point (and the bill) and it doesn't get switched to anything, it stays terrorism. And there were bills introduced just after 9/11. It included Homeland security and the Patriot act. As well as bills just after Oklahoma City like the Omnibus Counter Terrorism act of 1995. So what has been determined from the Times Square incident is that those obviously do not go far enough. Hence the Lieberman bill.

Anyway, after reading your post I realized you are just beating around the bush about the answer to my question. Which is essentially yes, you would trade 1 life for 100,000 jobs. That is the problem with liberals, progressives, democrats, whatever. They are statist. Progressive's believe the state is more important then the individual and a good example is socialism and to a greater extent communism. Abortion is also an example. And actually statists are more about "me" or what can I get from the state because I deserve it because I was born here. Then they refuse to serve the state or country (not just militarily) and make excuses. Many don't even pay taxes. What kills me is how liberals hold up JFK as an icon but conveniently ignore one of his main ideas: "ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country". But back your your answer and I will use your "statistics". I wouldn't trade even 10,000,000 jobs for one life because life is the most important thing.

Now I love the arguments liberals make about how "evil corporations" inadvertently cause death with their decisions. This is a classic cop out of individual responsibility. People dying of heat exhaustion caused by Enron is utterly ridiculous. I am amazed that we as people survived through the thousands of years without electrical power. In hotter places, mind you. People don't die because of a lack of healthcare, either. Emergency rooms still give care regardless. That is why you are billed afterwards and not before care. It is what the individual's lifestyle before and after care is given that has a greater effect on your health. Meaning, you should be responsible to take care of yourself to avoid non-emergency visits. And if you need the emergency room, it's there (for everyone, not just the insured). Geez, for all the love of Darwin the left has you would think they would embrace survival of the fittest a little more.

Also, I abhor suicide and I do not shed a tear for those who commit it, no matter what the situation. I have soldiers who lose there whole families and their homes while they are at war and they drive on. A person willing to slap God in the face by ending their own life is despicable. The reason for suicide is always ALWAYS unjustified. There is always a better choice and there is always someone who is doing more with less. And because of that, people killing themselves due to Wall Street's actions is not Wall Street's fault. So I discount that argument.

I'm sick of people blaming others for their problems and looking for a nanny state to take care of them. I encourage you to watch America: The Story of Us on the History Channel and you will see what true Americans look like. They did it for themselves and asked for nothing even when the government and even God pushed them down. But when the country needed them they stepped up. Where is that attitude today.

But anyway back to terrorism and this bill. This bill is not a response to what happened 15 years ago. It is a response to what almost happened a couple weeks ago. Why is it so outrageous to nip a problem in the bud before it happens? Maybe if the U.S wasn't so reactionary and was more pro-active we could control our destiny a little better and possibly stop a terrorist attack. That is America used to be.
May. 11th, 2010 04:40 am (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
Of course I would be happy to e-mail (or even snail mail) you a copy of my DD214 to prove my service as a Ranger to this country from 1988 to 1992 (I will black out my social security number, but other than that I will leave my military record to speak for itself, maybe you can even call me and I can recite the Ranger Creed for you. Almost 20 years later and I still remember every line. Some things never leave you).

You are using labels as a means to further your argument and as a means of attack. You say I am a Liberal (Please note the capital 'L'. I am not, unless you consider a classic liberal, what we today would call a libertarian in the mold of Trenchard and Gordon of the Independent Whig, to be a Liberal. Which it is not).

You seem to miss my point. I do no necessarily have a problem with removing the citizenship of those who threaten this country. There are precedent for traitors, such as Robert E. Lee and much of the leadership of the CSA. My problem is we are happy to only hold one group accountable while we allow those who wish to exploit their fellow Americans and do great harm to this country to get away with it. These people do far greater harm to this country than one SUV bomb ever could, and yet I am still waiting for some kind of indictment for the near-collapse of our entire economic system.

I am also a historian (one masters degree and working on a second) and there are great parallels in history to what is going on in America, most notably the Ottoman Empire in the late-sixteenth and seventeenth centuries and the Byzantine Empire in the eleventh and twelfth centuries. There the interests of select elites became inverse to that of the state: They did better economically provided the empire did worse; as the empire became more dysfunctional, so did their power and influence grow. They encouraged wars which further sapped the strength of the empire and which allowed them greater profit from said loss of strength.

I do not need to watch America: The Story of Us to see what a true American looks like. I see one every day when I look in the mirror, and I also think of the four years I spent away from my wife while I was in the Army and she was living with her parents in Massachusetts. Don't preach to me of sacrifice as I have watched my brother, a newly promoted first sergeant in the Marine Corps who has served Iraq for one tour, is most likely off to Afghanistan within the year.

My offer still stands, I will be happy to send you a copy of my DD214. Just please, do not let arguments so quickly tumble down into an exercise in name calling. It does neither of us any good. And lastly, it is not a matter of trading a life for 100,000 jobs or even 10,000,000 jobs, the two arguments are not mutually inclusive. We do not have to lose a life to save those jobs; we just have to demand of those who say they put America first to truly put America first.
May. 11th, 2010 09:50 pm (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
Ok to your first reply. What titles did I throw around? The only thing I said about the military is "my soldiers" when talking about people who have it way worse then those whom commit suicide not way worse then you. You were the one content with pompous titles and credentials. "Ranger" "Master's Degree", etc. You have no idea what I do nor what my background is. So I can assume you will reroute that ridiculous comment back to yourself. I never preached to you of any sacrifice that you need to make at all so I have no idea where that came from. I merely suggested you watch a good program about great Americans. From this you derived that I was insinuating you were not a great American and felt the need to defend yourself by saying you look in the mirror and see one. That's great, so do I. But I still like to know when I may better myself with good content and see what I can do to emulate even greater Americans. I mean you made it clear you are a historian so you would think it would interest you. What names did I call you? I did make references to liberals but if you are not, fair enough. That's not exactly a stinger and as a ranger I'm sure you've heard worse. I am torn by your comment about them not being mutually inclusive. I agree that both can be done because they are unrelated. But that was my point. They are unrelated but you found the comparison and I felt the comparison was weak. I agree that we need to keep jobs in America but I don't think punishing companies for finding a better opportunity is fair. Maybe it's just the capitalist in me. If this country makes it harder for a company to make a profit through regulation and taxes then why wouldn't they go somewhere to make more money. However, the reason I said anything at all was you were comparing terrorists to Wall Street and I think the relationship is apples and oranges. Terrorists want to maliciously kill innocent people and cause chaos, I'm pretty sure Wall Street doesn't do that. I hope your brother stays safe in Afghanistan because I'll have it easier in Iraq when I leave in June. I will read the next thing you posted later when I get a chance. Oh and I don't need your DD214, the Ranger Creed, the Soldiers creed, NCO Creed, or anything else. Call me naive but I have a tendency to believe people even on message boards. But I will leave you with a suggestion like you did me. Do not take everything I am disagreeing with you on as an attack. I was actually surprised to see you defending yourself so vehemently because it didn't seem like what I posted was particularly malicious.
May. 12th, 2010 12:26 pm (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
This was the reason for my response:

"Anyway, after reading your post I realized you are just beating around the bush about the answer to my question. Which is essentially yes, you would trade 1 life for 100,000 jobs. That is the problem with liberals, progressives, democrats, whatever. They are statist."

How would you normally take that? Also . . .

"Now I love the arguments liberals make about how 'evil corporations' inadvertently cause death"

Seeing as I had just made that argument, are you saying you were not calling me a liberal, and that in using the term "liberal" you were not meaning it as an insult?

Like it or not, the term "liberal" is certainly used as a pejorative and an invective from those in the conservative spectrum (please, feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong). It just did not seem like anything I suggested or referenced was dependent upon a particular political ideology.

I was not trying to compare Wall Street to terrorists, so on that I should have been much more clear, but it was more of a comment derived from discussions I have had with others outside of this board. Let's just put it down to me continuing a conversation here and not filling anyone in on the first half of the conversation. I will stand by my statement that the loose and destructive actions by Wall Street from 2000-2008 certainly did more damage than one SUV bomb ever could.

As far as corporations go, they are not evil. They are responsible for employing tens of millions of people in this country. The officers of a company have one, and only one, responsibility: To ensure a profit for their stockholders. Perhaps that is why I favor privately held companies as opposed to publicly traded ones. I am not saying companies need to be punished (unless they engage in illegal behavior (such as Enron)); but I do find it abhorrent that an American company will buy a pair of jeans made in China for $4.25, and from workers who are being paid $0.06 an hour, and then turn around and charge $75 for said pair of jeans. Meanwhile, China is happy to then take the profits from such a manufacturing situation and lend the money at interest to the United States. Sorry, but on the part of the American corporation, that is treasonous and has a strong parallel to the elites of the Ottoman Empire and their dealings with France and England, et al during the seventeenth century.

Perhaps I lean away from the laissez-faire capitalism of Adam Smith and more towards Ordoliberalism. I believe it is the government's responsibility to ensure a country's economic system cannot be brought to the brink of collapse due to abuses in a non-regulated environment.

As far as America: The Story of Us, I actually had already recorded the the first episode because I felt the CGI of the settlements would be helpful in class.

One last thing, Ranger and Masters are not pompous titles. Duke, baron, and king are examples of pompous titles. They don't have to be earned. There is nothing wrong with being proud of the things you worked so hard for, and saying such, particularly when it certainly appeared my nature as a "true American' was being questioned.
May. 11th, 2010 07:34 am (UTC)
Re: Strip people of citizenship?
I just got back from a nice walk and I wanted to just address a few of your comments, sir . . .

onefever: "Why is it so outrageous to nip a [terrorist problem] in the bud before it happens?"

How is stripping people of their citizenship if they have provided material support to foreign terrorist groups going to do anything? Tell me, what is this going to do above and beyond what our legal system is going to do (send someone away to prison for a very loooong time)? What is this going to nip in the bud and how is it a preventative measure, as you are therefore claiming?

onefever: "People dying of heat exhaustion caused by Enron is utterly ridiculous. I am amazed that we as people survived through the thousands of years without electrical power."

Look it up, people did die due to heat exhaustion during the rolling blackouts of 2000-2001 (particularly the elderly, and there are even recordings of Enron traders joking about it while it happened). We have not lived in extreme urbanized environments for thousands of years. You probably do not know this, but this was a major problem in the United States during the explosion of urbanization after the influx of southern Europeans post-1880. The government made it a priority for architects and architectural schools in the 1890s and 1900s to solve the problem. They had very limited success. Read through some of the papers in New York during heatwaves of the 1890/1900s and you will see many articles telling people in tenements to check on their elderly neighbors and to get them to areas where they might get relief.

onefever: "I encourage you to watch America: The Story of Us on the History Channel and you will see what true Americans look like. They did it for themselves and asked for nothing even when the government and even God pushed them down. But when the country needed them they stepped up."

Why were people able to pay $300 to buy their way out of the Union draft during the Civil War? Why were people with 20 or more slaves exempted from Confederate military service. Tell me, who do you think was capable of meeting those economic requirements? I am not trying to be contradictory, but records do show that people did ask for help from the government, it just was usually local government and not the Federal government.

I know you believe the United States is a meritocracy. Have you ever considered that it might, just might, not be a meritocracy? I am not a socialist, nor a communist, and I do not believe in the redistribution of wealth. But I also believe I am fully capable of using my intellect and experience to accurately assess a situation (something which allowed me to outstrip my peers in the military when it came to gaining rank and responsibility as a team leader and squad a leader; it also allowed me to perform within the top 1% of academia; and, I put this in because I can only imagine what you think, to serve to educate our young in a public high school in both World and US history).

I know this conversation has been both civil and has gone far afield, but to our original point: What will this bill accomplish, honestly, what will it do to deter or combat terrorism. Honestly, please, I am interested in your arguments (and I assure you, I will pose them faithfully and accurately to my students because I do think this is an issue of great importance).


George R.R. Martin
George R. R. Martin

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