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Someone Is Angry On the Internet

My position on so-called "fan fiction" is pretty well known. I'm against it, for a variety of reasons that I've stated previously more than once. I won't repeat 'em here.

My position is not unique. It is not universal either, I realize. Some writers actually encourage fan fiction (I know some of them, have heard their arguments), others don't seem to care one way or another (I know many of those). Many writers have no idea that it exists, no concept of what it is (in part because of the confusing term "fan fiction," which subject I will return to later), and have given the subject no thought. So there's a wide range of opinion on this matter, even among writers.

There are lots of us who oppose fan fiction, though. One such is my friend Diana Gabaldon, author of the mega-bestselling OUTLANDER series... and the occasional terrific short story and novella, some of which Gardner Dozois and I have been privileged to publish in our anthologies. Diana recently outlined her own feelings about fan fiction -- especially fan fiction involving her own world and characters -- in a series of posts on her blog:


Subsequent to Diana's first post, all hell broke loose. (As it seems to do more and more often on this "interweb" thingie). A thousand comments on her first two blog posts on the subject. It's all there, for those who want to check out the "debate." Which soon, alas, became heated, as hundreds of... what's the correct term here? fanficcers? fan fictioneers? fans of fanfic? defenders of fanfic?... arrived from all over the internet to take issue with Diana. A good number of them seemed to open their posts with variations on 'I don't know who you are and I've never read your books and I've never visited this blog before, but I've come by specially to lambast you.'


I have a colorful metaphor in mind to describe what this reminds me of, but I won't use it. Metaphors seemed to spark much of the outrage here. Writers have a natural prediliction for the colorful phrase, the striking comparison, but in political discussions -- and this is, at base, a political discussion -- that can lead to hyperbole, which can lead to anger.

So let me try to eschew all that and remain calm.

I am not going to rehash the arguments for and against "fan fiction." If you want to read those, go to Diana's blog. In between the shouting and the abuse and the endless restatement of the same three or four points by several hundred different posters, there's actually some fairly cogent posts on both sides, arguing the pros and cons of the issue.

I would like to say a couple of things that I don't think anyone else covered, however (and yes, I read all thousand-plus comments, though admittedly I skimmed some that just seemed to be more of the same).

As I said, my reasons for opposing fan fiction have been stated in the past. They are more-or-less the same reasons as those cited by Diana Gabaldon, and pretty much the same reasons that would given by any writer who shares our viewpoint on the matter. So I won't repeat them here. But I'll add a few thoughts.

One of the things I mislike about fan fiction is its NAME. Truth is, I wrote fan fiction myself. That was how I began, when I was a kid in high school writing for the dittoed comic fanzines of the early 1960s. In those days, however, the term did not mean "fiction set in someone else's universe using someone else's characters." It simply meant "stories written by fans for fans, amateur fiction published in fanzines." Comic fandom was in its infancy then, and most of us who started it were kids... some of whom did make the mistake of publishing amateur fan-written stories about Batman or the Fantastic Four in their 'zines. National (what we called DC back then) and Marvel shut those down pretty quickly.

The rest of us knew better. Including me. I was a fan, an amateur, writing stories out of love just like today's fan fictioneers... but it never dawned on me to write about the JLA or the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man, much as I loved them. I invented my own characters, and wrote about those. Garizan, the Mechanical Warrior. Manta Ray. The White Raider. When Howard Keltner, one of the editors and publishers of STAR-STUDDED COMICS, the leading fanzine of its day, invited me to write about two of his creations, Powerman and Dr. Weird, I leapt at the chance... but only with Howard's express invitation and permission.

So that's the sort of fan fiction I wrote. How and when the term began to be used for what is called fan fiction today, I don't know. I wish there was another term for that, though I confess I cannot think of one that isn't either cumbersome, vague, or prejorative. But it does bother me that people hear I wrote fan fiction, and take that to mean I wrote stories about characters taken from the work of other writers without their consent.

Consent, for me, is the heart of this issue. If a writer wants to allow or even encourage others to use their worlds and characters, that's fine. Their call. If a writer would prefer not to allow that... well, I think their wishes should be respected.

Myself, I think the writers who allow fan fiction are making a mistake. I am not saying here that the people who write fan fiction are evil or immoral or untrustworthy. The vast majority of them are honest and sincere and passionate about whatever work they chose to base their fictions on, and have only the best of intentions for the original author. But (1) there are always a few, in any group, who are perhaps less wonderful, and (2) this door, once opened, can be very difficult to close again.

Most of us laboring in the genres of science fiction and fantasy (but perhaps not Diana Gabaldon, who comes from outside SF and thus may not be familiar with the case I am about to cite) had a lesson in the dangers of permitting fan fiction a couple of decades back, courtesy of Marion Zimmer Bradley. MZB had been an author who not only allowed fan fiction based on her Darkover series, but actively encouraged it... even read and critiqued the stories of her fans. All was happiness and joy, until one day she encountered in one such fan story an idea similar to one she was using in her current Darkover novel-in-progress. MZB wrote to the fan, explained the situation, even offered a token payment and an acknowledgement in the book. The fan replied that she wanted full co-authorship of said book, and half the money, or she would sue. MZB scrapped the novel instead, rather than risk a lawsuit. She also stopped encouraging and reading fan fiction, and wrote an account of this incident for the SFWA FORUM to warn other writers of the potential pitfalls of same.

That was twenty years ago or thereabouts, but that episode had a profound effect on me and, I suspect, on many other SF and fantasy writers of my generation.

Okay, it was one incident a long time ago, you may say. Fair enough. Let me bring up a couple other writers, then. Contemporaries of an earlier age, each of whom was known by a set of initials: ERB and HPL. ERB created Tarzan and John Carter of Mars. HPL created Cthulhu and his Mythos. ERB, and later his estate, was extremely protective of his creations. Try to use Tarzan, or even an ape man who was suspiciously similar to Tarzan, without his/ their permission, and their lawyers would famously descend on you like a ton of bricks. HPL was the complete opposite. The Cthulhu Mythos soon turned into one of our genres first shared worlds. HPL encouraged writer friends like Robert Bloch and Clark Ashton Smith to borrow elements from his Cuthulhu Mythos, and to add elements as well, which HPL himself would borrow in turn. And in time, other writers who were NOT friends of HPL also began to write Cthulhu Mythos stories, which continues to this day.

Fair enough. Two writers, two different decisions.

Thing is, ERB died a millionaire many times over, living on a gigantic ranch in a town that was named Tarzana after his creation. HPL lived and died in genteel poverty, and some biographers have suggested that poor diet brought on by poverty may have hastened his death. HPL was a far more beloved figure amongst other writers, but love will only get you so far. Sometimes it's nice to be able to have a steak too. The Burroughs estate was paid handsomely for every Tarzan movie ever made, and collected plenty on the PRINCESS OF MARS movie I worked on during my Hollywood years, and no doubt is still collecting on the one currently in development... though the book is in the public domain by now. Did the Lovecraft estate make a penny off THE DUNWICH HORROR movie, the HERBERT WEST, REANIMATOR movie, the recent DAGON movie, the internet version of CALL OF CTHULHU? I don't know. I rather doubt it. If they did, I'll betcha it was just chump change. Meanwhile, new writers go right on mining the Cthulhu mythos, writing new stories and novels.

Cthulhu, like John Carter, is in the public domain by now, I know. But it wouldn't matter. Because HPL let so many others play in his sandbox, he essentially lost control of his own creations. That's what I mean by (2), above. The fan fiction door, once opened, is hard to close again.

A writer's creations are his livelihood. Those copyrights are ultimately all that separates an ERB from a HPL. Is it any wonder that most writers are so protective of them?

Those of us, like Diana Galabdon and myself, who prefer not to allow fan fictioners to use our worlds and characters are not doing it just to be mean. We are doing it to protect ourselves and our creations.

Furthermore, we HAVE to do it. That's something no one addressed, in those thousand comments about Diana's blog. There was a lot of talk about copyright, and whether or not fan fiction was illegal, whether it was fair use (it is NOT fair use, by the way, not as I understand the term, and I have a certain familiarity with what is and isn't fair use thanks to my own experiences with THE ARMAGEDDON RAG), but no one mentioned one crucial aspect of copyright law -- a copyright MUST BE DEFENDED. If someone infringes on your copyright, and you are aware of the infringement, and you do not defend your copyright, the law assumes that you have abandoned it. Once you have done that, anyone can do whatever the hell they want with your stuff. If I let Peter and Paul and Nancy publish their Ice & Fire fanfics, and say nothing, then I have no ground to stand on when Bill B. Hack and Ripoff Publishing decide they will publish an Ice & Fire novel and make some bucks. Peter and Paul and Nancy may be the nicest people in the world, motivated only by sincere love of my world and characters, but Bill B. Hack and Ripoff don't give a damn. They just want the bucks.

Once you open that door, you can't control who might come in.

No one would ever do that, I hear someone muttering in the back. Hoo hah. The history of publishing is full of such cases. Even the famously and fiercely litigious ERB estate was famously victimized back in the 60s, when someone forget to timely renew the copyright on a Tarzan book, and a bottom rung comic company noticed and promptly started up a completely unauthorized (and unpaid for) Tarzan comic.

Those are some of the reasons writers like me will not permit fanfic, but before I close, let me put aside the legal and financial aspects of all this for a moment, and talk about more personal ones. Here, I think, Diana Gabaldon absolutely hit the nail on the head in the latest of her blog posts on the subject. And here, she and I agree completely. Many years ago, I won a Nebula for a story called "Portraits of His Children," which was all about a writer's relationship with the characters he creates. I don't have any actual children, myself (Diana does). My characters are my children, I have been heard to say. I don't want people making off with them, thank you. Even people who say they love my children. I'm sure that's true, I don't doubt the sincerity of the affection, but still...

I have sometimes allowed other writers to play with my children. In Wild Cards, for instance, which is a shared world. Lohengrin, Hoodoo Mama, Popinjay, the Turtle, and all my other WC creations have been written by other writers, and I have written their characters. But I submit, this is NOT at all the same thing. A shared world is a tightly controlled environment. In the case of Wild Cards, it's controlled by me. I decide who gets to borrow my creations, and I review their stories, and approve or disapproval what is done with them. "No, Popinjay would say it this way," I say, or "Sorry, the Turtle would never do that," or, more importantly (this has never come up in Wild Cards, but it did in some other shared worlds), "No, absolutely not, your character may not rape my character, I don't give a fuck how powerful you think it would be."

And that's Wild Cards. A world and characters created to be shared. It's not at all the same with Ice & Fire. No one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but me.


I have gone on longer than I intended, but I think this is important stuff. "Fan fiction" -- or whatever you want to call it -- has been around for a long time, but never like now. The internet has changed everything. Whereas before the fanfic might be published in obscure fanzines with a circulation of a hundred, now tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, can read these... well, let's just call them "unauthorized derivative works." (Except in cases where the writer has authorized 'em, which I suppose would be "authorized derivative works.") More than ever, we need some boundaries here.

I salute Diana Gabaldon for opening the debate.

And now I step back, and await the onslaught.

(But a word of warning. I'm not nearly as nice a person as Diana is, and this Not A Blog is screened and monitored by my assistant Ty. Diana was willing to let everything go in her comments section. I'm not. So -- my roof, my rules. Disagree, if you want. Disagree vigorously. Argue your points. But no name-calling, no abuse, no threats. And you can spare me the "I have never read any of your books, but now I'm not going to, and I'm going to tell all my friends not to read your books either" posts as well. Fine, you just want to read books by authors who support fan fiction, go ahead, do that, there are a number of very fine writers in that group, we don't need to hear about it here. No derailing the discussion, please. Let's talk about the issue, not tone. I'd love to see some rational discourse here, thanks).

(And yes, the title of this post is a reference to the classic xkcd cartoon that can be seen here: http://xkcd.com/386/)



May. 8th, 2010 01:50 am (UTC)
Personally, I love the stance Charlie Stross has on fan fiction:

"I do not mind you writing fanfic using my characters and sharing it with your friends unless you do so in a manner that f**s with my ability to earn a living. . . . I am not a precious sparkly unicorn who is obsessed with the purity of his characters — rather, I am a glittery and avaricious dragon who is jealous of his steaming pile of gold. If you do not steal the dragon's gold, the dragon will leave you alone. Offer to bring the dragon more gold and the dragon will be your friend."

As well, JK Rowling, of course, who said that as long young people are encouraged to write, she's happy, though, of course, as long as they don't try to make money off it.

It's a personal opinion. It's going to be a little while yet until I publish my book, and I would only be lucky if it is good and popular enough for people to want to write fic for it. If it is, however, I stand strongly by my opinion that what I wrote, my books, are there, it's my universe, my characters, they go where I sent them and do what I told them. But what people want to imagine they do in their own times is really their business as long as they don't try to make money out of it or claim ownership of the characters/universe. I am, however, a rather laid back person who cares little for things like this. As well, I am a person who is a good writer thanks to fan fiction and the feedback and practice it provided. (I was an immigrant when I started off, and somehow stumbled into fan fiction for the Harry Potter books).

However, I fully support both your opinion and your right to have them and act upon them. Your books, characters, and works will always be yours, and you have a right to have people respect your wishes as to their use no matter what their personal opinions about that may be. I've noticed a lot of people don't get that. It's all good and well to argue and tell you what we think, and try to change your mind, but in the end, whatever you feel the end of that conversation.

(I also wanted to mention, that I completely agree with your "children" analogy, despite my views on fan fiction. I feel the same way. I can hardly have people edit my work. So I would never ever look up any fan fiction based on my work, or I may just join you in your opinion, no matter how strongly I oppose it at the moment. You just never know exactly until it happens to you, I suppose.)

Edited at 2010-05-08 02:10 am (UTC)
May. 8th, 2010 02:57 am (UTC)
I'm not so sure about the illegality of fanfics. Fanfics use the "world" an author created, which is a concept, an idea. However, copyright law is not supposed to apply to ideas, only to the words themselves. Unusual names however, you might be able to defend infringement on the copyright and as trademarks.

As for Marion Zimmer Bradley, her failure might have been to be actively reading the facfics. In copyright law, you have to prove that the "copy" is indeed a copy and not only someone arriving at the same result in a completely separate process. ie: if you write something and it never leaves your computer, you can't sue someone who used the exact same words as they would not have been able to copy your work in the first place.
May. 8th, 2010 08:07 am (UTC)
They use the worlds and of characters, generally. Either way, this makes them a derivative of the original product. At Chilling Effects, their section on fan fiction has this:

" The owner also can stop someone from (5) creating "derivative works". A derivative work is a new work based on someone else's intellectual property. A sequel to a movie, Rocky IX for example, is a derivative work."

There's an argument that fan fiction is "transformative" and therefore can fall under a fair use exemption, but I myself am fairly dubious about this.

BTW, the selection of Rocky in the above quote is not coincidence. Sylvester Stallone successfully sued someone who wrote a proposed Rocky sequel without permission. The court found sufficiently developed characters in and of themselves are afforded copyright protection.

May. 8th, 2010 04:47 am (UTC)
I tend to agree with Diana on most of her points, and while I've read one or two pieces of fanfic, it's never really held my attention. I'd rather have the originating author weave the stories for his/her characters.

At the end of the day it all comes down to respect. Which seems to get lost in the great big internet void.
Some authors like fanfic - great. Enjoy turning their stuff into fanfic.
Other authors don't like fanfic - respect it and don't do it.

It's really quite simple and it's just too bad that not everyone believes/understands that respect is important. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with your grandma or your favorite author/singer/etc or the waitress at your neighborhood diner, simple respect for others goes a long way.
May. 8th, 2010 07:40 am (UTC)
"As well, JK Rowling, of course, who said that as long young people are encouraged to write, she's happy, though, of course, as long as they don't try to make money off it."

And look at where that lead her to... a court battle against the the owner of a site that decided to publish a Harry Potter encyclopaedia.
May. 8th, 2010 11:44 am (UTC)
I was deeply involved in the HP fandom for several years and out of the dozens of friends and hundreds of friends of friends discussing the case across my f-list, I don't know a single fic writer who didn't side with Rowling during that trial. I'm sure some existed, but in general the fanfic community reacts very harshly against people who try to publish fanfiction or any other derivative works without the permission of the writer.

It's partly to protect our hobby, because every time something like that happens, a few more authors come out with anti-fanfic policies, but it's also true that the vast majority of ficcers value the gift economy fandom is based on and react badly to ANY attempt to profit off fanfiction. (Check out the Fanlib incident for a whole lot of very angry, articulate explanations about why.)
May. 8th, 2010 04:32 pm (UTC)
Unfortunately, that's not really an accurate comparison, because that had little to do with fan fiction.

When it comes to fantasy series, especially ones that create a completely different world, with its own terminology, geography, etc., most of them will have encyclopedias or references, on-line or in print. I know there are a billion Middle Earth and Narnia ones out there, not written by either Tolkien or Lewis. Of course, they're dead. It's a bit of a gray territory, especially with on-line ones.

It's not actually a copyright violation to make those online, for instance, in the same way it wouldn't be for me to publish an essay about Ice and Fire, because it is simply explaining and listing the concepts of the books. I know, for instance, that Ice and Fire series has plenty (I had to read the first book in first year university, and had to refer to on-line guides for certain concepts and characters because I didn't have time to read it as thoroughly as I did the second time. :)) Nor is it or can it be classified as "fan fiction" in any shape or form.

What happened with JKR and that guy was a very... unwise person fighting a very... doomed battle from the very beginning, and I don't think it could be blamed on her allowing fan fiction. One of her main arguments was that she had herself planned on writing something akin to a Harry Potter reference/encyclopedia, and since she had decided that, there would be no reason to allow some random guy to make money off of it. Yet there are a few other books about her universe that she DID allow people to publish (like the Science of Harry Potter, which takes spells and mythology she used and relates it to the real roots in science or history), and none of them were fan fiction.

You're right in theory. JKR had had troubles in this general category when she was going to be sued by some person who claimed she stole names from her, I believe, fan fiction. It is unfortunate, and unpleasant, but first of all, I've never seen any fan WIN one of those battles, because frankly, they usually stem out of people's stupidity and ignorance of copyright and licensing laws.

Yet after both of those messes, she had not withdrawn her agreement for people to write fan fiction, though she was specifically asked somewhere right after whether that had spoiled her once eager support of it. It has not. There are hundreds of people writing and getting better and loving it and not being crazy out there, and for her, at least, that over weighed the couple of crazies she has had to deal with (but when you're a real popular artist of any kind, I can guarantee a couple of those can be expected somewhere along the road either way). There are.. unwise people everywhere, I've seen many authors get into ridiculous legal battles with fans when fan fiction wasn't involved at all.

But anyway. The instance you're talking about had little to do with fan fiction. The second instance I mentioned, she sued the person first for I don't remember what specifically, but it had something to do with making stupid allegations in the first place.

Edited at 2010-05-08 04:34 pm (UTC)
May. 8th, 2010 09:58 am (UTC)
Agreed, and a query: what about licensed role playing games?
It was very kind of you, midnight_birth, to type out something very similar to my own thoughts on the matter and save my fingers a little strain. I am firmly in the camp of "respect the writer's wishes, regardless of your own feelings."

It is strange; I haven't thought about fan fiction in a while. I call it strange because like many, fan fiction is where I got my start at the keyboard. It was always a private affair, shared with close friends in print copies or email. I never posted it to the internet, nor, have I ever considered doing so. So it effectively avoided many of the issues mentioned here (not on purpose, just out of shyness).

Some time ago I evolved to the desire to publish my own work with my own worlds and my own characters. Ironic when you consider that my first paid writing work has been in a world of extremely vigorously guarded intellectual property (at the owner's invite and with them reviewing the output, I assure you).

Which brings me to my query- it seems that the domain of role playing games muddies the waters. Here, the author has essentially allowed people to pay a licensing fee to play in their world, and in many cases with their characters. Perhaps the license granters imagine that role playing is still only a group of people around a table in someone's living room, but this is not true. A great many groups play in text-based medium over the internet. They play in chat rooms and forums and via email. This leaves a text trail more or less identical to fan fiction. If this is done in a forum, it is there for the internet to see. Some groups might post logs to a website.

Now, I know that there is a Song of Fire and Ice role playing game. I'd be very curious how Mr. Martin thinks this weaves in to the topics at hand.


George R.R. Martin
George R. R. Martin

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