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Puppy Whines

Puppygate is the gift that keeps on giving.

Every time I think I have said all that needs to be said on the subject of the Hugo Awards, one of the Puppies does or says something else egregious, something I cannot let pass.

I have tried to have a rational discussions of the issues here, addressing each of the claims put forward by the Sad Puppies and their supporters calmly, with arguments based on facts, history, common sense. Although I continue to disagree strongly with Larry Correia and Brad Torgersen on... well, on just about everything they say... I've managed to have a civilized and civil dialogue with both.

But beyond the borders of my own Live Journal, the dialogue has been anything but civil. And it grows more toxic and hateful with every exchange, it seems... especially from the Puppies.

Yes, it's my old friend "the Tone Argument" again.

When we began this exchange, I pointed out that was going to call the Puppies "Puppies" because that was what they had named themselves. I asked for the same consideration, asked that they stop with the "Social Justice Warrior" stuff, because that was NOT what my side calls ourselves, and some of us find it offensive. Instead of respecting that request, the Puppies doubled down. ALmost every post from them is SJW this, SJW that. For some, the original term was not enough, so now they are talking about "Social Justice Whores" and other twists on the term. And Brad Torgersen himself, seemingly not content with SJW and SMOF, has gone out of his way to come up with CHORF, a new epithet that he is using at every opportunity.

This is not the way to argue, not the way to exchange ideas, not the way to have a dialogue. Someone who takes pride in coming up with new mocking epithets and insults to hurl at his opponents is telling the world that he has no interest in debate, that he would rather just spit and hiss and jeer. And then there's the curious Puppy trick of mocking themselves, with an air of outrage, implying that the hated "SJWs" have called them these names... which is bullshit. Brad's latest blog post, proudly trumpeting that he is a "hateful hater who hates," is just the latest example of this. Before that, we've had the Puppies calling themselves Wrongfans having Wrongfun, or the Evil League of Evil, and similar stuff.

It all boggles the mind. And of course it leads to surreal arguments that 'their side' is justified in calling our side "Social Justice Whores" and the like because our side has called their side "Wrongfans" and "Haters" -- when, of course, we haven't. You are calling YOURSELVES that... with sarcasm, sure, but still, you are the guys coining all these new and exciting insults, for both my side and your own.

Let me ask, once again, for civility. When the argument is about political issues, I will call your side "conservatives" and "right wingers," and I'd ask you to call us "liberals" or "progressives" or even "left wingers," not SJ-Whatevers. When we are focused more on worldcon or the Hugos, I will continue to call you "Sad Puppies," and I will take care to differentiate you from the Rabid Puppies... except in cases where you're acting in alliance and agree, where I will just say "Puppies." And you can call my side "fandom" or "worldcon fandom" or "trufans." The two sides use "fan" to mean very different things, as I have pointed out repeatedly, which causes some of the confusion. Here's a new thought: if you insist on calling yourselves "fans," then call us "fen," the ancient, hoary, fannish plural of fan. Fans and fen, there we go, two terms for two sides, no insults. Is that so bloody hard?

Also... can we please stop it with the moronic World War II metaphors? Larry Correia is not Churchill, Brad Torgersen is not FDR, and no one is Hitler. We are not fighting the Battle of the Bulge. No matter how the Hugo vote goes, no one is going to a death camp to be gassed.
This is not a fight for freedom, on which the fate of western civilization depends. We are talking about a literary award here. Bottom line, we are arguing about whether the mantle of past Hugo winners like Robert A. Heinlein, Ursula K. Le Guin, Alfred Bester, and Robert Silverberg should be passing to Anne Leckie, John Scalzi, and Jo Walton, or rather to Brad Torgersen, John Wright, and Kevin J. Anderson. This is an argument about what makes a good story, about prose style and characterization and theme and originality. We do not need to make it a blood feud. Have a little sense of proportion, Puppies.

And really, stop it with all the vitriol. Or the rest of the world may actually start to take you seriously when you named yourselves 'hateful haters who hate.'


Apr. 27th, 2015 10:18 pm (UTC)
Here's an idea -- debate the issue without epithets.

Namecalling, whether with old epithets or new ones, is no substitute for actual discussion.
Apr. 27th, 2015 11:42 pm (UTC)

Just so you know, those acronyms are typically used to describe only a small group of people -- not everyone on the left in the SFF community. CHORF is used to describe specific WorldCon attendees who don't want outsiders to play with the Hugo Awards, unless those outsiders want only the works they like to win; a fairly small group as I think you might agree. SJWs, on the other hand, are a vastly larger group of individuals, most of whom have nothing to do with or even care about science fiction and fantasy. SJWs are those who instantly call anyone who doesn't agree with them "racists," "misogynists," "homophobes," "islamophobes," etc.

Please don't take those terms personally because they are used to describe seriously intolerant persons, and you simply do not qualify.

Unfortunately, they are often used by some people who paint with an incredibly broad brush. I don't use them, but I do know what they mean and, like "racist," "misogynist," etc. I do know when they are used incorrectly.
Apr. 28th, 2015 04:40 am (UTC)
Re: CHORFs and SJWs
You realize though, that these terms are currently being applied to everybody who does not agree with the puppies?

So it helps about as much to tell people they are not "meant" by the term as if I say, if someone called racist and you feel you are not racist then they didn't mean you. Don't take it personally.

You cannot ask something from the other side that you are not willing to do yourselves. That is the definition of hypocracy.

Apr. 28th, 2015 02:13 pm (UTC)
Re: CHORFs and SJWs
I believe I stated that the terms are used with a broader brush by some people. I sincerely hope I implied that I do not approve of any incorrect use, just as I disapprove of any inappropriate use of terms that immediately show intolerance. As I said, I don't use them.

Fortunately, I'm a nobody on the internet, so I have the luxury of walking away for a week to read six good books to remind myself what all this is about -- Faith Hunter's latest, Dark Heir (all her stuff is excellent, btw), and the first five books in Annie Bellet's Twenty-Sided Sorceress series (fun and quite addictive, I must say).

I'm hearing a lot of anger in posts. I hear you. That said, not every SP supporter is just as angry, but some are. I wish more would just walk away for a bit, read some good books, and come back with a clearer head and a better attitude. But, that's me.
Apr. 29th, 2015 08:40 am (UTC)
Honest Discussion
I note that you left Vox Day's name out of this. He has offered to discuss the subject with you and you refused.

I have read/seen him debate people who disagreed with him and the debates were always civil. He is always willing to discuss/debate ths issues with anyone willing to give it a go.

I also remember the term SJW/Social Justice Warrior used long before this by people who consider themselves SJWs.

I have 2 very dear friends who are very involved in the Tibetan movement, hosting/accompanying monks when the monks are in the US and visiting their compounds in India several times a year. I have heard them call themselves SJWs more than once.
Apr. 29th, 2015 05:12 pm (UTC)
Re: Honest Discussion
Okay, then, if any Tibetan monks become involved in this fracas, I will gladly call them Social Justice Warriors.

Look, the basic issue is simply courtesy. If you start a debate by fastening a name or label on your opponent, it is a mark of disrespect, and any hope of rational discourse goes right out the window before you even begin.


George R.R. Martin
George R. R. Martin

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